Episode 71: Looking Back on 10 Years of The Lonely Palette (with Julie Shapiro)

Speaker 2: [00:00:09] Art is not generally usually my thing, I guess, but I like to visit museums, you know, to be cultured, I guess, to see what's. I mean, I do enjoy certain types of art.

Speaker 3: [00:00:22] Describing this painting. Describe what your face just did.

Speaker 4: [00:00:26] Wide eyed and. Yeah.

Speaker 5: [00:00:30] It looks like something I did, doesn't it? I would be disappointed if I painted like that. I'd have to fix this.

Speaker 6: [00:00:38] I don't see it. Okay. So I like I read the thing and it says that's the hair in the top left corner. But I don't see the face.

Speaker 7: [00:00:45] You know, the more I look at this, the more I see her.

Speaker 8: [00:00:49] We don't know what she's thinking. We don't even know if that's a female shoot. She has a nice butt, but it could be a guy. I'm not even kidding. Like, you don't know. Art is so complex.

Speaker 9: [00:00:59] Look how big his head [00:01:00] is to his body. And he has almost no shoulders.

Speaker 6: [00:01:04] He seems very personable, like somebody you would. You've definitely seen or met or like asked for directions or something like that.

Speaker 10: [00:01:15] There's a certain kind of modern art that I don't exactly understand. I think that a lot of the stuff they do is just like, why are you doing it? Like you'll find like a piece and it'll be this elaborate sculpture and it'll just be like, it'll be like a toilet or something like really out there. And you're like, why am I looking at this? Why aren't I looking at a Monet?

Speaker 3: [00:01:37] Is it is it art?

Speaker 2: [00:01:39] It looks like a urinal.

Speaker 3: [00:01:44] I guess.

Speaker 2: [00:01:45] It's art in its own form.

Speaker 3: [00:01:46] Right?

Speaker 10: [00:01:49] I don't get it. It's just lines. I did a project in kindergarten, and all of our pieces looked like, to me at least.

Speaker 11: [00:01:56] It actually kind of reminds me of a computer monitor a little [00:02:00] bit.

Speaker 12: [00:02:01] It's abstract. You know, if that wasn't the title and it was a different title, I don't know. Would you try and make something else? Maybe.

Speaker 13: [00:02:10] It kind of makes me feel lost in the painting.

Speaker 3: [00:02:12] Yeah.

Speaker 13: [00:02:13] Like I'm in the painting, and it makes me feel lost.

Speaker 14: [00:02:20] Oh, well, I'm looking at a nice big hunk of art.

Speaker 15: [00:02:25] I just wanted to rip it off the wall. I want to hear it chime. And I just want to roll around in it and hear the sounds it makes.

Speaker 16: [00:02:32] So it's almost like being in, like, a fruit roll up of the desert.

Speaker 2: [00:02:40] I do like Monet. It's nice. I really like landscapes and things. I have a little bit of that Downton Abbey going on.

Speaker 9: [00:02:47] I would say that it's a sponge that has been squeezed so hard that it's so thin, and when you add water to it. It puffs up and becomes a big, moist [00:03:00] mess.

Speaker 17: [00:03:04] It turns out it's like weirdly more accessible than you think it is.

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Tamar: [00:03:14] Edgar Degas once said that art isn't what you see, it's what you make others see. But then Rihanna said, close your eyes. Sometimes it helps. Now, personally, I like to think of a podcast about art history as kind of a happy medium. I launched The Lonely Palette a decade ago, a decade. If it were a kid, it would be on the cusp of puberty and hungry for both meaningful connection, which I appreciate, and independence, which, given the state of the podcast industry right now, I really appreciate. Launching this show launched my career, and the painful irony of that is it [00:04:00] means that I never really have much time to work on the show. My beloved passion project. There's never as much time as I need, but milestones matter. They're a really wonderful, arbitrary moment to stop pathologically looking forward and look back. Look around. A decade of the lonely palette, a decade of hitting up whatever art museum is in the same city as a friend's wedding, a decade of sneaking recording devices into galleries. Sorry not sorry. A decade of hustle, of pulling out prose like taffy, of learning how to build websites, of navigating changing industries. And I thought, I have stuff to say about this. Ten years of stuff. So I asked the best in the business to interview me. You know, Julie Shapiro, even if [00:05:00] you don't realize it, she is the audio visionary behind Third Coast Audio Festival, which she helped create and radiotopia where she used to be the executive producer and audio flux where she currently crackles and on and on. And now she's a collaborative member of Hub and Spoke, which I helped start. And she's a friend. And after ten years of making audio, I can say that now without pinching myself. So Julie and I look back together. We say stuff. We talk about the industry, about the show, about craft and art and failure, which is hard, and success, which can be harder. So please join us. I really hope you enjoy this conversation. After the break. Julie and me and ten years of The Lonely Palette.

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Julie: [00:07:45] Okay, well, anything you want to talk about before we dive in, or should we just go and see what happens?

Tamar: [00:07:51] Um, I tried to think of, of how I would want to kind of prepare for this. And then I realized that it's in the preparation that, you [00:08:00] know, everything goes to hell and it's like, it's like, then you start to think that you're following a script and it's just not, you know, like the whole everything good that's come out of this so far has come out through free, free flowing conversation.

Julie: [00:08:16] Yeah, that makes sense. Um, also, what do you have to prepare about? You've been making a show for ten years. You you know it best. Um, I did prepare just a tiny bit though, uh, by listening a whole lot. I just went back into the, into the library and just sort of spot dropped, dropped a needle every ten episodes or so and listen to a bunch. So, um, it was a cool way to experience it because I've, I've, you know, I've known of the show for a long time. Maybe since you started. I've listened, you know, kind of off and on pretty regularly, but not every episode over time. But hadn't, you know, with everything else going on, hadn't as much as recently. And then but getting the full view of how it's, how it's evolved, of course, over ten years [00:09:00] was very cool. So, um, yeah. And how podcasts work is your voice is very familiar in my ears now. And, you know, it's, it was like forming a different sort of relationship with it just in the past couple of weeks. So that was wow.

Tamar: [00:09:14] I actually also just listened to a whole bunch of episodes in a row. I was, I was driving to and from Toronto in a very like impromptu drive in my, my baby daughter was in the back and she was starting to get fussy and it helps to hear my voice.

Julie: [00:09:32] Oh, sure.

Tamar: [00:09:32] So I put on a bunch of old episodes and I was preparing to just kind of cringe my way all the way through. And honestly, it was. I put on episodes that I haven't listened to very much. And I was like, I gotta say, I was really proud of them. They, they they held up in a way that I. It almost feels like somebody else made them, you know, like the.

Julie: [00:09:55] Oh, that's so interesting.

Tamar: [00:09:56] The mental space that I was in when I was able to do [00:10:00] the really complicated stuff feels like a different chapter of my life. And so.

Julie: [00:10:06] Yeah.

Tamar: [00:10:07] Yeah, that, that part of it was kind of like beautiful and sad, but also it felt like I was, you know, I, I felt like an amateur for so long that it was nice to listen back to it and be like, well, you know, sure. I didn't really know this and that about audio engineering, but like, I knew how to, how to make an argument. That was that was what I was trained in. And so that felt like it. It held up.

Julie: [00:10:33] That's great. I mean, what a relief, right? For one. But, um, but also I'm not surprised and that you can still appreciate those earlier efforts. You know, partly because it's not so different from what you've always been doing and what you continue to do. I mean, I think it's deepened, matured, evolved. But yeah, I mean, I can hear the now in those first few episodes, even just the, um, especially that just sort of fire in the belly [00:11:00] like I am here, I'm going to do it. Here we go. Come along. Um, so I had.

Tamar: [00:11:05] A lot of fire to shoot at the academic world to.

Julie: [00:11:09] Yeah. I guess you had different motivations. Um, yeah. Well, we are recording this, um, on the 10th anniversary of the show also, of course, a very famous Star Wars holiday indeed.

Tamar: [00:11:23] May the 4th be with you, Julie.

Julie: [00:11:25] May the 4th be with you and with the lonely poet for ten more. Um, that is fun. And, uh, how does that feel to have reached. I mean, there are a lot of podcasts that don't get very far, shall we say. But to hit the ten year mark is pretty remarkable.

Tamar: [00:11:43] I feel like all I see, until I actually sit down and look at how far I've come, I see that I've only put out X number of episodes. You know [00:12:00] that it's been ten years, and when I first launched this, I thought I would be putting out an episode every two weeks or, you know, and then that slowly became once a month. And then I would hit the month mark and think, why haven't I released another one? And it's like that anxiety of when is the next episode coming out has been hanging over my head now for ten years. That's why I.

Julie: [00:12:26] What can we.

Tamar: [00:12:26] Do.

Julie: [00:12:27] To dispel that anxiety on this, in this conversation? What can what can we do?

Tamar: [00:12:31] I mean, it it helps to look back and really say that the kind of producer that I wanted to be when I started and the producer that I've become is actually still the same person. And that does point out, I think, what you just said about how the show had a certain sound and a certain kind of conceit from the very beginning. And [00:13:00] in that way, it actually was born fully formed. And it took a long time to like, forgive myself is the wrong word. But it took a long time to let what it was be what it is and feel like. It's okay that that's not the kind of audio that if I were hired by a show, you know, it's not it was never going to be This American Life, even though that's kind of what I always thought was the gold standard of storytelling. And I would say, well, why is it's too academic? People are telling me it's too academic, it's too wordy, it's too, you know, like, how can you make an audio show about art? Like, you know, where's the, where's the kind of anecdotal storytelling that we've all gotten so used to kind of thinking is the way you do this? And [00:14:00] then I've had other opportunities now to make that kind of work. And I still go back to the original Essayistic way of writing these episodes, which I feel like is where I've always been able to shine, you know, where it's always kind of felt like this is the way as an art history student, I always wanted to be able to talk about this stuff. And I and I have been now for ten years. And yeah, it just kind of feels like I don't have to apologize anymore that this is what this show is and and always was, and that people still listen to it and don't hold it up to, you know, other kinds of shows like it is its own show.

Julie: [00:14:50] I would definitely agree with that. I mean, it's, you know, I think you set out to do something fairly radical, whether you're an average listener understands that or not is another [00:15:00] story because to them, it's just, you know, a show about art, but from your background, what you were trained in, how people talk about art, what an art historian is and should be and should sound like. I mean, I feel like that's something you subverted from the start and you talked you talked the story into the essay. So yes, maybe there, um, maybe they're more writing than crafted documentary, but there's a whole lot of storytelling going on in, in the writing, in the essays, in the perspectives, in how you approach the description of what you're telling us about. So, um, that. Yeah. And that hasn't changed really. I think that's just the storyteller in you operating at, you know, full speed ahead. And so.

Tamar: [00:15:41] Yeah, I spent a lot of time apologizing for the kind of art historian I was so.

Julie: [00:15:46] Apologizing to who, um.

Tamar: [00:15:48] I mean, you know, always myself a little bit for not kind of, you know, marching down the path that had been so well laid out for me if I just [00:16:00] kept it up and worked hard and, you know, kind of kept my, my academic nose clean. Um, but also to my professors, you know, like I, I would have to, I used to like to take kind of storytelling style leaps in my writing. And you have to really earn that in the academic world. Like you're never allowed to start with a thesis that is going to be kind of sprawling across across centuries, but is held together by by a kind of human aspect, like we've all experienced X. And so maybe this artist was tapping into something like that. Like, you can't do that without actually being able to footnote every, every step that that artist took. And that took a lot of work. And it, it killed a lot of the joy of that kind of original, like epiphany, like, oh, Walter Benjamin was [00:17:00] in 19th century Paris and how much that really spoke to 20th century Germany because of his interest in the way that people were, were kind of, uh, both put to sleep and woken up by the properties of technology. And like, I like ran to my thesis advisor and I was like, ah! And she was like, uh, let's, uh, you know, like, hold, hold on a little bit, you know, slow down and let's figure out.

Tamar: [00:17:28] But but I did it. I spent the entire year working on my master's thesis, you know, to actually make that connection. Um, yeah. And it was, it was a thrill and it was a slog. And, and it felt like if, if I was going to keep going in the academic world, I wasn't going to have the energy to do this every time. And so I wasn't going to be able to write about the stuff that really excited me and kind of find that story in everything. And, and teaching art [00:18:00] history was the best part because I was able to use a lot of storytelling in order to kind of explain what made every painting actually as human and interesting as, as people who are learning about it and kind of making that connection. But you can't teach if you don't do if you don't get the PhD first. And I just, I felt really just blocked at every turn from the kind of thinking and writing and expressing that I wanted to do. And when I discovered public radio, it felt like this was exactly the kind of storytelling I wanted to do. But you know, who's going to be that interested in in academic art history, in the, you know, this American Life style world?

Julie: [00:18:45] Yeah. But little did you know, the industry was going to, you know, find different waters to swim in. Well, that's kind of a lame metaphor, but, um, you know, what's happened around that moment where you started last ten years, [00:19:00] things have shifted so much that now people's expectations of how they learn and where the information is and what what a podcast sounds like has changed so much. So you've sort of it's interesting because you're sort of on the crafted end of the chat show, you know, you do more than just talk to people. There's a lot of storytelling tucked in. And so it's, it's almost, you're almost like a port in the storm. For people who are just listening to interview shows and information, you know, kind of downloads to get the combination of the background and the history. And, you know, I think after so many episodes, after so many years, your listeners come along for you, right? Like you've, you've built a relationship with them in a way that they're invested in you and how you're doing and what you want to do with the show and where it's going. And, you know, anyone who's paying attention would understand that, like you were learning as you went and you were building something.

Tamar: [00:19:55] Here, I'm.

Julie: [00:19:55] Sure from the experiences that you had and your community was growing and you were helping grow [00:20:00] community, you know, it's like a bigger story than just even the podcast, which I think is a really interesting way to look back at like your professional career through the podcast and understand, you know, just like dropping into episodes and being like, oh, they got $100,000 grant, you know, hub and spoke came alive. Like all these things were happening that were mirroring, mirroring the industry a bit through your experience and like you're sort of documenting them. Maybe not formally, but bits and bobs come through. I know the lifespan of the show.

Tamar: [00:20:29] That's what's so sad about dynamic ad insertion, is that you don't get that wonderful time capsule of static ads. It's like when my grandma used to tape movie musicals off the TV, and it was like all those commercials from the 80s in between, like West Palm Beach in the 80s, like those commercials were as meaningful to me as, as The Sound of Music.

Julie: [00:20:50] Yeah. Yeah. And then when in podcasting, when you go back and listen to an old one, but you hear like a now commercial, it's just there's like the cognitive dissonance about what's going on temporally. But [00:21:00] yeah, I don't know. Um, I wonder how you feel the show sounds now compared to its contemporary shows and what's going on around it.

Tamar: [00:21:12] Contemporary to today.

Julie: [00:21:13] To today. Yeah. Like, where does it stand in the, um, you know, it sounds to me like you feel like it started a little bit of a not a fish out of water, but something that wasn't exactly crafted documentary storytelling and that felt maybe like it stood out to you from the things you listened to or things you wanted it to be. But how does that feel now, considering the sort of tenor and temperament of what's getting made out there?

Tamar: [00:21:38] It still feels like it's a little bit on an island. You know, in 2016, when the show launched it, this was like it was I tell people now who are interested in launching podcasts, who I talk to, especially art, which museum podcasts [00:22:00] that it's so hard to get traction today versus in 2016 when there was more of a sense of, of this kind of democratic rush of creativity that was breaking the form. Like breaking the form was a really big deal ten years ago, and I actually I entered a lottery to, uh, get a like doctor's appointment. I'm putting that in, in air quotes at third Coast, and I got a slot so that an audio doctor would listen to my show and give me guidance. And for some reason, I don't know, the, the two producers, you know, really seasoned producers who, who got stuck with me or so they made me feel, um, were very [00:23:00] like very trained come up through NPR style producers. One one was from NPR and one was from the BBC. And the two of them, they just like, it's like they couldn't believe what they were hearing. It's like if they could, they would have had their hands over their ears. Like what? What is this? You know, kind of trying to shake it out of their heads. And it was like, how would you make this fit with a clock? And I was like, well, that's not really how I'm thinking about it. Like that was one thing. It was that like, like the format just didn't make any sense to them.

Julie: [00:23:36] What year was this?

Tamar: [00:23:37] This was 2017.

Julie: [00:23:39] Um oh my goodness.

Tamar: [00:23:40] And then also there was this kind of like, like the, the BBC host was an arts reporter and she was like, you know, you talk about Jackson Pollock. Why isn't there any music from that period under, you know, kind of scoring your work? And I was like, I don't know, I just kind of found music that I [00:24:00] felt like kind of hit the vibe and she was like, well, that's a missed opportunity. And the other one was like, I couldn't even finish an episode. That's what she said. I mean, God, I came out of this, and I was back when I still had a corporate job and I could afford a hotel room at Third Coast, and I went up to my room and I cried and then kind of rallied and came back down.

Julie: [00:24:19] But I feel like I must, on behalf of a festival I had nothing to do with at the time, apologize to you for the, um, for bringing those two people into rooms with, you know, passionate, excited producers with like, excellent ideas. That's terrible.

Tamar: [00:24:36] But it just, it just goes to show you how this world of podcasting was, was kind of up against something that had been so formalized and, and had a real kind of like surprisingly conservative, you know, lowercase c conservative way of looking at how this stuff is made. And so that to answer [00:25:00] your original question, kind of where it sits now, the podcasting world has itself gone through so many iterations that it still is like, it's like a lot of podcasting, you know, the stuff that is just kind of made. You know, there's, there's prestige HBO and there's Monday Night Football or Sunday Night Football. You know, I mean, it's like the word podcasting has to mean all of that. And so in order to kind of make a chat cast that's going to reach a million people or, you know, something really, really refined that that isn't now really that funded anymore or, you know, expected to meet that many people. It's like, I still feel like I'm making something that's a little bit too erudite for one subset and not conversational enough in the way [00:26:00] that that even the really kind of prestigious stuff is expected to, you know, kind of pull you in with a very specific kind of storytelling. Um, And, uh, yeah, I, I don't know quite where it fits. And I think honestly, it's made it hard to keep making more episodes because what that process really is, is I sit down and I write, you know, I write an essay, I, I always write something that ends up getting pared down quite a bit.

Tamar: [00:26:35] So it's like, it always starts out almost like a, like a, you know, academic assignment. And then the process of kind of writing it to audio is to pare down, pare down, pare down, you know, read it out loud, see what sounds like it will make sense if I were just listening to it instead of seeing it on the page. Um, again, a process that, that I've been doing since the beginning, I think I've just gotten a little [00:27:00] better at, um, and, you know, like writing is I think what all the best audio producers are really good at, But it's not easy for a mom of three little kids. And it's not easy in kind of making, you know, kind of putting a lot of my professional energy into, uh, making a living. And, you know, the lonely palette opened the door to make a living, but it's never kind of generated that itself. So yeah, the industry right now, I think would only have room for this show because it's been going on for ten years. And that's a, that's a shame. I feel like we kind of went from this place of creativity, like such creativity that was crackling and sparkling even beyond what seasoned producers were ready for in 2017 to in only ten short years. Also kind of a place [00:28:00] where creativity feels like a, like a new idea.

Speaker 21: [00:28:05] Mhm. It's interesting.

Julie: [00:28:07] Because, I mean, on one hand, what you explain what you described about your experience at the festival, there was no room for imagination or sparkle or, you know, risk taking or, you know, following your nose down a trail that you feel drawn to. I mean, I guess it was just both. It was both little c conservative and, and really tied up in what had come before and how to do things because that's how things were done. And this sort of beckoning openness about exploring other forms and, and doing it your own way. Um, and then now I feel where the capital I industry is very, um, narrow in what it rewards with fame and fortune and money and numbers. Um, there is this sort of growing discontent leading to, you know, like a sort of determination to do things differently. You [00:29:00] know, where those things fit into economic systems is a different conversation. Um, and of course that's where reality was, where the rubber hits the road. And for a lot of people, the reality of being creative and trying to make a living, exactly what you're talking about is really has always been challenging, will always be challenging. Um, but on the other hand, you've got ten years under your belt. I'm sure your audience is, you know, the people who it's for and who appreciate it really are probably very loyal and, and appreciate it a lot. And you, um, I can hear the reaching out to other kinds of formats, uh, doing miniseries and, um, the interviews, even your most recent episode with Elaine and I'm not going to say her name. Helena Degroat.

Tamar: [00:29:45] She taught.

Julie: [00:29:45] Me right, right. Growth without the Helena Degroat. Um, you know, which is a different thing entirely. It's more about process. It's not about you could say it's about her piece, which is a sort of artwork unto itself. Um, but you know, it's really [00:30:00] a different kind of conversation. So that's maybe for even a different audience than necessarily someone who's come to learn that, you know. American Gothic, which I didn't realize that there was a big debate. Is she. The wife, is she the sister, you know, who's coming to actually learn things? Um, that they might read on a wall text or, or hear in an audio tour at a museum. So, um, I can hear you kind of not casting about because that sounds utterly rudderless, but exploring, trying these other things. Maybe, maybe you get bored with one thing after a while and it's really, you know, and this is the beauty of your own podcast, you can you can take it in all kinds of directions. Um, I was thinking about how the partnerships have been so, uh, informative of what, you know, the content that you've made as well because you're in different museums and different shows. Um, and that's a cool thing that most podcasts don't have like this sort of external guide, uh, towards, um, sorry, there's a big spider, um, you know, the, the [00:31:00] partnerships seem to have really helped structure seasons and like giving you sort of directions to go in.

Julie: [00:31:05] And I know like those have changed come and gone over the years too. And you've worked with a lot of different museums and institutions. And, you know, the thing is, it seems like it always comes back to like your vision for it and what you want to do with it. And I probably don't know all of the ins and outs of who you've worked with in the past and what the benefits of that has been, but it feels like it's all like you've had a lot of different experiences in the ten years you haven't. You don't just roll up and put out a podcast on the regular, as you said. Um, so it's been this like bigger adventure than just, you know, making a podcast. It feels like. And so, you know, I guess I'm, I'm curious how you think about what you have learned about, um, not just the industry, but yourself as a creative person through all of these different experiments in the show.

Tamar: [00:31:52] You know, it's funny that you mentioned the different museum partnerships. I just came back from last week. I was at the Baltimore Museum of Art and I'm [00:32:00] working on a podcast for them. And I sometimes feel like when I actually meet with different museums, you know, they don't know what I've said to other institutions. You know, I kind of, I, I just kind of paradrop in, as, you know, the, the, the contractor who talks podcasts with them and they have all already met. They've already had subcommittees, you know, the task who are tasked with spending that grant money on a podcast. And so by the time I come into the process, um, you know, they already think they have a sense of what they want, but they don't really. And that's when, you know, they, I step in and they're like, oh, God save us. You know, like we know, we, we know we need to have a podcast. We don't know yet what we want it to be. And the conversation that I end up having with all of them is the conversation that I have had within the the scope [00:33:00] of the podcast the entire time, which is that artists are people too, and your audience are all people too. And that that relationship is, is a lot more obvious than you think. And that's something that when I tried to understand why I loved art history in the first place as a student, because again, if you're not interrogating yourself as to why you would put yourself through this, you're never going to make it in the academic world because it is so exhausting.

Tamar: [00:33:45] I remember talking to my, my beloved advisor, Judith. Um, before, before I took my big Walter Benjamin idea to her and she told me to slow down. I, I sat in her office and I was also kind of weeping on her [00:34:00] at the beginning of the program about how hard it was and how unprepared I felt for all of the reading. You know, that we were just given every day. And she just said with a big smile, she said, oh, that's because it's impossible. It's impossible. And I was like, yeah, like what? I kind of looked up at her like tear stained. And she's like, look, it's just not possible to read everything we assign you. That's part of this process is to learn how to, you know, pick through and, you know, kind of pull out what you need in order to get somewhere. That's what academics do, you know, and students learn how to this is the process of learning as a student how to become, you know, my colleague, not my student anymore. And by going into it, same thing you'd say to a new parent.

Tamar: [00:34:53] It's impossible. So just from there, go with it. Get, you [00:35:00] know, kind of that permission to know that it's not possible to do it all at all, let alone perfectly. Um, so you take that with you when you're deciding how far into the academic world you want to go. And you remind yourself that, like why you love it and why I loved it was I really, really loved finding out things about where artists were in kind of the paintings moment of inception, like where they were emotionally, where they were intellectually where they were and in their, their friend groups. And because I always did modern art, there's a lot more of that to really, you know, dig into and yeah. And especially where were. I think, more than anything, actually, even more than the artists. Where were the contemporary audiences when they were receiving this [00:36:00] stuff? And that also made me feel like I could be a good producer, because thinking about how the audience is receiving the story being told is something that, unfortunately, academics have a really hard time with. Like it's just not, it's not as much a part of the training to really think about how to teach. Um, you have to get the information across like that, that centers the information, not the reception of it. Um, yeah.

Julie: [00:36:36] And so it's very quantitative versus qualitative in a way.

Tamar: [00:36:41] Yeah. Like there's if, if your student isn't getting it, you know, fortunately, I had enough. I worked at Harvard long enough where the teachers get blamed if your students do poorly. That I had to really, really think about how to get this information across to students. And [00:37:00] that required so much storytelling, so much anecdotes, so much like, you know, like, you know, how you feel this, so did this artist, like, you know, how you lived in this moment. So did this artist. And always thinking in those terms completely shaped how I always felt people would best receive this information about these artists and these paintings. And so then I step into a museum and like, it's so simple, it's impossible to conceptualize that. It's like these artists were human beings, you know, putting on their, their pants one leg at a time. And, and you walk through a museum space and you can't possibly wrap your mind around how old the paintings are, and that you're walking from one room to another. And these objects are, you know, hundreds to thousands of years old. But then if you're actually like working in the [00:38:00] basement, you know, doing an internship and you have like 100 year old loan documents in your hand and those feel really old, you know, those feel like you see, you know, old timey salutations and like onion skin paper and, you know, and like typewritten, like it just feels old.

Tamar: [00:38:18] And then you think, okay, this is, this is a loan document for something that's actually talking about a painting that's like 300 years older. But I walked by it and I didn't think anything of the age like putting people in the position to really recognize that these objects were made by human beings is exactly that kind of like what audio? To me, it's like you hear its voice, you know, and it's like that connection that that confluence of the painting actually speaking to you in a voice as intimate and, [00:39:00] and human as a, as radio in your ears, you know, I'll take that to a museum and be like, guys, don't you, don't you see? Like, no matter what we do, if we go in with that kind of mentality, this is going to be a better podcast than your institution has made in the past. Because it's not an audio guide, it actually.

Julie: [00:39:27] Is. And yeah.

Tamar: [00:39:29] The human connection here, and that's what's going to reach your visitors.

Julie: [00:39:33] That's very different than what most audio tours are. And it's associated with museums. So I can see the, I can understand where the starting point is very far from there. If, if any place is looking to branch out and do a podcast. So are they generally receptive to your suggestions or is it challenging?

Tamar: [00:39:51] It's you know, I mean, I don't want to say too much on, on the record, but, uh.

Julie: [00:39:57] Yeah, it's I guess [00:40:00] it's like, is that idea too radical or too to unofficial or too subjective for institutions wanting to sort of put out official podcasts and things?

Tamar: [00:40:10] Yeah. I mean, what's nice is that I've been able to cultivate an audience that is bigger than a lot of these institutions are able to cultivate with their own podcast. Um, museum podcasts don't get a lot of engagement, right? For largely the reasons that I've just kind of laid out that they don't do. Yeah. And so if I go in there and say, look, I'll give you my audience, if you give me this job, then they let it be a lonely palate joint? Mhm. And so, but I'm always also working with people who are running their PR or their digital. I mean, it's not like it's not like curators would ever allow me to kind of waltz in there and, and totally upset their apple cart [00:41:00] like this. Um, you know, they sign on eventually, but, but museums are also largely very siloed. And so whatever's happening in digital is usually in a totally different universe than what's happening in their curatorial department. Um, so, you know, it's, it's been really nice to be affiliated with institutions that, you know, I walk into and it's like when I was an art history student, I could never dream of kind of scaling those walls like they make it especially because I didn't have a PhD. And I, you know, it's like when I kind of made the decision that that's, I wasn't going to go down that road. It was like all of the doors at museums that I'd always looked up to. I mean, they just shut with like an iron clang. And so I always felt like I was so inadequate in those places. And [00:42:00] so to then kind of, you know, to like have the opportunity then to walk in as an outsider and be able to say, okay, like my way of looking at this is going to be what your museum prioritizes in terms of their podcast. Like that's, that's very exciting. It also just doesn't tend to move any needles, you know, like they don't tend to prioritize podcasts because it's audio and they don't know what to do with it.

Julie: [00:42:30] What I take from all of this is one thing that the podcast has done for you is you have a certain expertise in what you're doing that is really foreign to a lot of the places that could benefit from having that perspective or that approach to this to, to finding an audience and to serving an audience through the collections that they have and, and the outreach they want to do about them. And I'm understanding that the podcast has been a way for you to kind of push back and do your own thing [00:43:00] and do it the way you think it should be done, and bring all of the influences and inspirations that you have into this space. Um, besides the art, the art is there as well. But then you have this love for audio and audio creation and the people who've made all of that. And so I think it's where it might feel to you that you've been behind, or that you've been chasing something, or at least pursuing something that doesn't always turn around and, and recognize that, um, there's another way to look at it, which is like, you've really done this remarkable job of planting a certain flag in a certain, um, belief in how art exists and how we talk about it, how we learn about it, and how we invite people to learn about it. Um, and that I think has been the through line. Um, I feel like I'm like with a sort of therapy mode here, but I, I see this through line of just this pure love for it, like really deep, even the way you're talking about it today, like it's really deep, um, belief and passion and like [00:44:00] need to feel the things that you feel when you're writing and sharing and sharing is so much of it.

Julie: [00:44:05] And what I wanted to say also is, um, the, what I also have seen become such a important element of the podcast has been this community around you. And so you're talking about interest in the artists community as they're making this work. Like what was their life like? You know, who were they hanging out with? Who were they being inspired by? Who was paying attention to their art? And then you're talking about your audience, and that's a community of people who've come together to receive what you have to give. And then, you know, you're part of a network that's all about community together. And so there's, um, you know, something to me that's very true to art, which is just that it allows, it forgives and it allows and it invites and it's, it has no expectations back at you except it's there and it's for you, you know, sort of to find your way with it. And I feel like some of those values and principles that maybe we share about [00:45:00] art or that you have about art, translate so nicely into the audio world, into the audio community, into the craft of what you're doing here. Um, and maybe you didn't realize that from the beginning because you always wanted it to maybe be something else or, you know, striving in one way, but what you've actually done is sort of forged your own path and brought a lot of people along, um, and become a leader in the space a bit. I mean, you've had some great success with this and I wonder how does that feel ten years on? Um, to actually just like accept, let yourself Acknowledge and understand that, you know, you have been really quite successful for an independent podcast in the space in these times.

Tamar: [00:45:41] I, I just need to hear it more. I need to hear it said by people like you.

Julie: [00:45:48] Yeah, we all, we all do, you know. Absolutely. But, but I but yeah.

Tamar: [00:45:52] I mean, so, so a couple of things there. One is just in, in talking about the love [00:46:00] of it, that love is so elusive. And when it hits, it hits so hard and I will feel like I will never have anything to write or anything to say ever again. You know, I'm head down making snacks, remembering library books, giving baths, you know, editing other people's audio and feeling like there's just no, there's, there's like no time for passion. You know, it's just not that season right now. And then I'll be in a museum like I was last week in Baltimore. And, you know, there's something in the air and the, the humidity. And I'll walk by a, you know, a painting or, you know, something that just was like, oh, and I could, I could do that. And it's like, all of a sudden, [00:47:00] all of the energy that goes into all of those daily mundane tasks is like this concentrated little atom bomb of like excitement. And it's like, I can't get to my laptop fast enough. Yeah, but that doesn't sustain the writing of a whole episode. Unfortunately. Yeah. You know, those things they, they like peak and then they, they disappear. And I would have that in grad school too. And that's when I would think like, oh, maybe this is the world that I want to go into and that I want to stay in.

Tamar: [00:47:28] Like just for those moments of sheer euphoric creative juice, juice and. Like, I don't know, maybe, maybe this idea of ten years has been so exhausting because it's been like ten years of chasing that dragon. But it's that's not even a fair way to put it because I, I catch him every now and then. Um, you know, and I, I like to believe that there will be a time where sitting [00:48:00] and writing will be like, I'll get into that flow and remember that love and really be in that headspace because it's, it's so good when it hits and it, it has kept me going. It's kept this entire machine going this whole time because I know that every now and then, I will be so excited to write about an artist and the way the artist has hit me, which has really kind of been the whole basis for the show. It's like, I assume if an artist hits me that way, then it will hit other people that way, and they just need somebody who's who's not going to scare them, to tell them that they can be open to that experience of it, of it hitting.

Julie: [00:48:47] Or even hits them some other way. But through hearing you talk about it, it kind of just opens, opens you to think about what are your own impressions of it.

Tamar: [00:48:57] Yeah. Whatever way it hits.

Julie: [00:48:58] Them.

Tamar: [00:48:59] Is, is fine [00:49:00] too. You know, they don't need an art history PhD. Like I didn't need one. And, and I still could have those moments and, and, you know, so, so too can, can really anybody. Um, but in terms of like my own role in the industry that has been like, I know, I know that I can believe in it because of how slow a burn it's been. Like it. It feels this place that and I don't. I don't just mean me. I mean kind of hub and spoke and you know, we've I feel like we've kind of earned this space honestly because we only in the last like six months started to feel like our, our bug was a feature. And it's like when you spend 8 or 9 years feeling [00:50:00] like you're failing at something, if somebody tells you actually, no, the whole conversation has changed and you're actually on top, not on top, but like you're above ground. You, you believe it because we know that we haven't changed our values this entire time. It just took a while for the industry itself to, to crash and burn so badly.

Julie: [00:50:23] I got so bad that, you.

Tamar: [00:50:25] Know.

Julie: [00:50:26] People are desperate.

Tamar: [00:50:27] When we were always only like a tiny little shoot coming up from the ground, you know, we were comparing ourselves to, like, trees. And when everything else was leveled, we're still like little shoots, you know, kind of reaching for the sun and, and the kind of creativity that we were talking about earlier, the differences, people aren't paying for it. And I think we start to feel like, okay, then, then there's no value to it. But when we saw what happened to that quote unquote [00:51:00] value, like to what people were paying for and how little value, so much of that work ended up having that it just kind of changed our whole mindset that it's like, what if, what if we just all pursued this stuff for the love of it and found other ways to make money and didn't expect to get, you know, Grants and funding for these specific projects, but just kind of did it because we loved it and because we had this kind of curiosity in ourselves and there was nothing prescribed from above, and we weren't supposed to have a certain political valence over what we were doing or a certain kind of ideology. But but you just pursued the story in order to be surprised by it. And that suddenly is having a moment because people are so hungry for it, because it felt like exactly what had been kind of compromised. And now that it's back, it's kind of what we were [00:52:00] doing all along. And now more and more people are are like joining us with that. And it just feels enormously gratifying. Like, I don't I don't think anybody at hub and spoke feels impostor y right now. I think we're all just so happy to be surrounded by other people who love what we love. It just turns out that some of those people are my heroes.

Julie: [00:52:26] It's, um, I feel like the, the, the sincerity of the network was clear, abundantly clear from the start. And as you said, nothing has changed. And the, the context around it has really changed and the value of it has really become foregrounded. I think for, for people who, who are tired and concerned and disappointed by the larger industry moving and shaking. And, you know, I tried to not only sound negative about the industries I do often. [00:53:00] Um, and I think, you know, one thing it has done is just cracked a lot open. And some of the people who've come to this new space actually find this corner of it and make it a richer, nicer, more interesting corner. Um, and so I think we've, we've both had Experiences inviting people in and, you know, celebrating these things and seeing their response. And, you know, that's where a lot of the impetus and inspiration and motivation comes for us. It's like there are people out there who really, really are looking for this, want this, want to be part of it. And so, um, yeah, it feels like, you know, I guess for you, there's been two, the show has evolved alongside the network evolving as well. And so you've had these two different experiences as a maker and as a supporter of makers and, um, probably learned a little bit of both from each, which is nice, I'm guessing. Um.

Tamar: [00:53:56] Yeah, very much.

Julie: [00:53:58] Let's talk a little bit about the elements [00:54:00] of the show and the craft of it. And, um, like, do you have, when you look back on the ten years, I mean, it's really obvious and easy to be like favorite episode. But I think, um, the thing I would love to know is if there's a particular episode for you that you Who came away with a very different sense of a peace through the labor of writing about it and learning about it and talking about it and recording about it. Or do you feel like the process is you figure it out, and then you just kind of make it to that shape, because that's very valid as well.

Tamar: [00:54:34] The beauty of having absolutely no editorial guidance beyond my own head is that there is nobody to stop me from going wherever I feel like going. Except, you know, within, within the boundaries of like, [00:55:00] taste. But, you know, when I was challenged to do an episode on dogs playing poker like that was.

Julie: [00:55:10] Who challenged you? Where did this come from?

Tamar: [00:55:12] My friend Andrew, he said I was. I was trying to think about ways to get more Patreon patrons. And I said, you know, I should offer up a like a episode, you know, like if you, if I get x many patrons, then I'll do like whatever, you know, I'll run around naked, literally speaking. And he was like, he's, you know, Bostonians, like do dogs playing poker. Do do dogs playing poker. I never knew anything about, hey, do that one. And I was like, okay, you know, like, look, there's, there's got to be as much of a history there as there is about anything else. And like in the process of, of researching it, it actually took me to a [00:56:00] project that I'd learned about from this American Life, uh, their episode where they had, they interviewed these kind of like scientist artists, kind of data collectors who were trying to write like the most wanted piece of music and like the least wanted piece of music and The Least Wanted ended up because they just they surveyed thousands of people and tried to get from them what they thought the most. You know, like, what are the most desirable elements of listening to music and what are the least ones? And so, um, the most like the least desired music was like a, an opera singer like, like singing along to an accordion, like a polka song. I mean, it's really, really funny. Um, but what ended up being kind of the most wanted was really derivative, boring crap.

Julie: [00:56:55] Kind of mundane.

Tamar: [00:56:56] Yeah. Like, it's just when you try to please everybody, you end up, you [00:57:00] know, not saying anything. I mean, it's, it's like, it's like so prescient for AI slop. And it turns out that these, these kind of artists. Data collectors also did that with artworks. And so in the process of being like, okay, dogs playing poker, like, why is it funny? Why is it even funny that I'm doing this episode? Well, because it's dogs playing poker like everybody. Like it's kitsch. Well, what is kitsch? Kitsch is what kind of appeals to everybody. But but nobody, you know that it's kind of that it's like exactly what art snobs look down on. But why? You know, like, what's the there there? And so I looked into what these, these guys said about like the most wanted painting and the least wanted painting and the most wanted painting looked like a landscape with George Washington in it. And, you know, it was nice and blue and green and easy on the eyes and the least wanted painting surprisingly [00:58:00] kind of looked like a Mark Rothko. Like it.

Julie: [00:58:02] Was just going.

Tamar: [00:58:03] To. Yeah, it was like.

Julie: [00:58:04] These.

Tamar: [00:58:04] Discordant colors. Yeah. That actually don't look that bad together. But it's just like, well, if people like blue, then they probably don't like red. And so it, it just was kind of like the opposite of what the baseline of like, of like desirable, kind of tasteful something, you know, and in kind of researching that, then that led me to, to like springing out into, well, what happens when the public feels like they have the permission to decide what they want to look at and they, you know, not the artist deciding, but the public deciding. And then what happens is that totalitarian dictators use that and say, here's, this is what you want to see. And that [00:59:00] took me to Hitler's great German art exhibition. And, you know, like how the degenerate art exhibition was, was saying, look at what happens when the artists decide you feel uncomfortable. You, you know, like, let's hang it crooked and make you feel really uncomfortable and invite you into it so that you look at it and you say, oh, God, I can't even, you know and you know, well, what's the opposite of that? These, you know, these striking figures that are pulled right from kind of DC comics almost. And yet nobody went to the great German art exhibition. It was a total flop. And it's like this all started with dogs playing poker and but nobody stopped me. Nobody stood in the way and said, you know, that's kind of a, you know, like my advisor, slow down. That's kind of a leap.

Julie: [00:59:50] No advisers allowed.

Tamar: [00:59:51] Yeah. Um.

Julie: [00:59:52] Yeah, yeah.

Tamar: [00:59:53] And it ended up being like a really not just a fun episode to write, but like a surprisingly powerful [01:00:00] episode to write. Because I, when it came out, I think it was 2017, you know, Trump had just been inaugurated like, and there was a real sense of like, well, we live in a world we live in kind of a populist world right now. You know what happens when we kind of eschew experts, artists, authorities, you know, who are telling us what we should be thinking. Well, no, we're going to rise up and push back. And yet there's there's a danger to that too. You know, like there's a because the, the danger of populism is how easily controllable we are when we think we're in charge. Um, and so I was really surprised that I was able to land in a place that felt actually pretty, um, I don't know, productive, starting from something that had started out as a joke. Yeah.

Julie: [01:00:54] Um, yeah.

Tamar: [01:00:55] So, and.

Julie: [01:00:55] It could have been just played as a joke too. You know, there's, there's like a lighter approach [01:01:00] to questioning the ubiquitousness of this, but the fact that there was this way to connect it to all these bigger, deeper ideas, that feels to me like you wrestling something into, into a place that you want it to be. And as you said, you get to, you get to do this. It's your podcast. So do you really, um, you really have not had any editorial input, like ever. It's really just you yourself and you.

Tamar: [01:01:29] I tried to ask my dad to help at first and.

Julie: [01:01:35] Oh, that's very sweet.

Tamar: [01:01:36] He, I mean, he's a, he's a journalist, he's a professor, he's a beautiful writer. And you know, it just, I, I used to give a little, a little talk about kind of writing for, for, or like making podcasts and the difference in writing for the page versus writing for audio. And I put a screenshot of his edits to my first couple, like to [01:02:00] my script where he was just like writing it for print. And I was like, no, dad. Like it's supposed to have those green underlines, you know, back when we all used Microsoft Word, you know, it's supposed to be fragmented. It's like it's supposed to be spoken. It's not supposed to flow beautifully for the eye. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, he was very, he was very kind about that and kind of stepped back and would just await the finished product. But, but after that, like, no, I, you know, I've had editors when I've, um, worked with museums, you know, I mean, I obviously you have people who are, are kind of editing from the museum standpoint. And, you know, if I've ever like, obviously working on other people's shows and I've had some truly excellent editors that I made me think, oh my God, if I'd had you from the beginning, you know, this could be the number one, the number one show in audio. [01:03:00]

Tamar: [01:03:00] But, you know, other than that, like, I've also had some really bad editors who, who didn't want the ideas to sprawl so much and felt like they were losing the thread and that they weren't really bothering to get it back, which was something that I felt like, you know, not that I can't lose a thread. Like we all certainly lose threads, but but it's so important to me that it all kind of makes sense that it all kind of comes together at the end, that it's like, okay, maybe you're losing it in the middle, but like, wait, there's a payoff here. Yeah. And that was really dispiriting because it was like, well, you know, like, don't you? I guess that's always something that you want to ask an editor. It's like, don't you trust me? Like, don't you trust that I know where I'm going?

Julie: [01:03:51] I feel like you, um, you have been put in a position where you have, you know, between those audio doctors, which would be, like, up at night.

Tamar: [01:04:00] I'll [01:04:00] tell you offline who they were about that.

Julie: [01:04:03] Yes, yes, I must know. No, no. It's okay. Um, but just, you know, it it what it sounds like is that when you've been in structured environments where there's hierarchy and a responsibility that isn't just for your own sake, but it is a shared responsibility between people in a program or people in a working environment is when, um, you've encountered this sort of lack of imagination in a way. Maybe that's a reductive way to say it, but people who just don't believe in that, something that you've been able to really do throughout the podcast in a really special way. But on the other hand, this is what you do and you've carved out your own style and niche for it. And so, you know, it's all the stronger for it. I would, I would think if this is something that no one other people would take in different directions And you know, the lonely palate. It. It [01:05:00] is so you. It's like this, like living and breathing representation of how you feel and how you think about this stuff and what's important to you and what you think is important in the world. And so maybe at the end of the day, it's all it's all kind of worked out the right in the right way. And, um, you know, easy to say from the outside.

Tamar: [01:05:20] Yeah.

Julie: [01:05:20] I, um.

Tamar: [01:05:21] I, you know, in retrospect, like, I, I'd like to go back and comfort myself, you know, from like eight years ago and say like, it's okay, they'll, you know, they'll see you someday. Yeah. But there's that, that blessing and curse of not of being your own boss that way. You know, you can, you can follow any idea wherever you want it to go. And, and it is entirely it is entirely me, which is a very hard thing to hand to somebody else, because it's not just my work, it's like my heart. And at the same time, there's nobody advocating for you. You know, there's nobody. [01:06:00] I only know that an episode really is good the way that I think it's okay. You know, when I get that call from my dad, so he's, you know, he's my editor on the other side and my mom is an artist. And so the two of them, when I get kind of the one two punch that like it's well written and made her think about her art differently, then it's like, that's a slam dunk. Yeah. And it's, but that's after it's published. You know, I don't share it with them.

Julie: [01:06:29] Before you publish it without knowing.

Tamar: [01:06:31] Yeah.

Julie: [01:06:31] Yeah. I'm wondering what your thoughts are about what happens next with the show. Does it continue on a like as you can basis? Do you have ideas? Who would you love? Are there pieces that you have a list of pieces that are backlogging now that you know you want to put episodes out about?

Tamar: [01:06:50] I do. I have, I have a handful of episodes that I've always wanted to write that I feel like I could, you know, if I really sat down, I [01:07:00] could. And they're from all across the canon. So I know it's like a whole season that's just in me somewhere. Um, I would love for it to be exactly as it is right now. Like that's what I want more than anything is to make more episodes in the style that have already been made and to like, find the emotional space in my life, to really love doing it the way that I know I can love doing it when I have the, the time and the, you know, like the, the resources for it. But I've also learned a lot in the last couple of years in being assistant producers and senior producers. And, you know, like for other people's shows is how to integrate more archival sound. Like I don't just have to read quotes out loud. I actually look now to YouTube to see if I can find it [01:08:00] being said. And sometimes you can. And it sounds great, you know, like it it feels like, like real audio production, not just, you know, kind of talking into a microphone and, you know, like reading an essay into a microphone. Yeah. And that part of it is, it reminds me that, that I'm in the right business because I get so such a thrill out of integrating voice and sound and mood, you know, the right music that underscores the emotional point of, of the argument or, and I love falling in love with each artwork that I do an episode on because it's really, really hard not to when you spend that much.

Julie: [01:08:49] Time, do you. How does your relationship to each piece change?

Tamar: [01:08:53] I love it.

Julie: [01:08:54] What's the shape of that arc of.

Tamar: [01:08:56] I will go in thinking, this is boring. I can't possibly [01:09:00] be interested in. You know, it's a total fallacy to think that art historians love all art history, like they're interested in the parts of it that they're interested in, and everything else is just what they suffer through to, to pass their comprehensive exams. And I love that I can, because I have to think about why anyone would be interested in this, you know, not just what the history of it is, just so that history is known by me, but it's like, what is the hook here that is going to say, okay, this is why this artwork matters to the world and why it should matter to you. And doing that work makes me love it. Um, and so that's actually kind of the fun of, of listening back to old episodes where like, I couldn't remember the, the angle that I took. And there was one that I was listening to on that ride back from Toronto, um, [01:10:00] this, uh, Olafur Eliasson spiral that I saw with my family, I recorded them, we were in Reykjavik for my dad's 70th birthday, and I was like, oh, Olafur Eliasson studio is here, guys, let's all go. And they're like, who? And I was like, doesn't matter. Let's go. And I was there with my poor siblings. I mean, now I'm the one with little kids and they've all got teenagers who would be fine there. But at the time, all their kids were little and they were like running around after these kids.

Tamar: [01:10:30] Like, it's this like series of glass works and, and like quiet, you know, reflection. And kids are running around screaming. I mean, I really apologize to my siblings, but for me, I didn't have kids yet. And I just wanted to be in this space. And we're standing underneath this, this rotating spiral that like, it's, it's cool, but like, so what? And in the course of this episode, it's like [01:11:00] the work that he was doing, his interest in climate change, his interest in, in space, in bodies, in space and meditation and breathing and all of that. I mean, I fucking love that spiral now. And I forgot why until I listened to that episode again, I was like, oh yeah, that spiral. Like, that's why it's so cool to stand there. That's what I hope can happen with anything I take on from, from dogs playing poker to, to the spiral to the Mona Lisa, you know, to like something that is so famous, like what else can be said about it? Um, and I actually had a really fun time doing that episode because I went to Paris and was crushed by the crowds. And that in itself kind of became a story that I couldn't even get close to it. And isn't that interesting, the way that that celebrity completely changes the quality of the artwork and like the art [01:12:00] viewing experience?

Julie: [01:12:01] Yeah, the experience of it. Yeah.

Tamar: [01:12:03] Um, so my, my hope is to keep having those individual like love affairs with every object. And I think, I think I told myself this a long time ago, if I hit 100 episodes, I can hang it up and see what comes next. And I'm at 70 now. So if I did 70 in 10 years, I don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon. If I really want to hit 100.

Julie: [01:12:31] 100, yeah, okay. Well, that's a good, good news for all of the fans of the show. I would say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Um, what would you say to somebody who comes to you with that fire in the belly? And a great idea that they simply must do. Um, from your ten years on wise learned, uh, perch of being an independent podcaster. [01:13:00] What would you first tell them?

Tamar: [01:13:05] If they came to me with fire, about talking about art? I would say think like an audio producer first. Don't think like an art historian first. If what you love about this is everything that you learned in the academic world, you kind of have to unlearn it if you want it to be, um, you know, successful. Like, what does that even mean? But if you want this to be a podcast that other people receive, you have to find what about this work feels most human and most relatable and think from the audience's perspective first. In terms of anybody who's interested in making it in the audio world right now, like about anything. I mean, this is what I, I said to somebody actually pretty recently, and I have this whole idea for [01:14:00] a podcast right now, kind of sponsored by hub and spoke. So, so don't steal it. Not you, but anyone listening. Um, to, to take a little, uh, a little sticky pad and write unpickable on it and cross that out and stick that to your screen. Because everyone has gotten so scared that this idea that they have, you can't pitch it anywhere. And so it, it withers on the vine and it's like, make it, make it.

Tamar: [01:14:39] And like, don't worry about whether or not you can pitch it, just make it. And then a place like hub and spoke should have a podcast for unimpeachable work. That's kind of what, what this whole sounds like America project is right now. I mean, just, and all that is, is we're just trying [01:15:00] to get work from every state, you know, let's celebrate America's birthday, 250th birthday by recognizing that there are. Emotionally laden sounds that come from every state where somebody can hear something and it's so familiar to them and it's so foreign to anybody else. But like, to them, it sounds like home. And every state has that. And there are independent producers, like good producers who really know how to listen in every state. Like, just send us your stuff and Will will like put it somewhere. We'll play it for people that I feel like is what this industry needs more than anything, is just permission to create and make it weird and not worry about what an editorial table at This American Life is going to say about it, because they'll probably reject it, because that's just kind of what they do. And, [01:16:00] and that that doesn't make us bad producers.

Julie: [01:16:06] Yeah. I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't. And, uh, yeah, I think just that encouragement to try and to see how you go and start small and yeah, you know, grow, grow with an idea, surprise yourself.

Tamar: [01:16:23] You can surprise your audience and surprise yourself.

Julie: [01:16:26] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Um.

Tamar: [01:17:24] Are [01:17:00] there any like in your listening? Was there anything that struck you or stuck out for you or.

Julie: [01:17:33] Yeah. Well, the first thing is I, I had to figure out what, what to drop the needle on. And so I, I thought immediately like, oh, I'll go to all the artists I love and listen to those episodes. And I was like, well, no, that's, that's not the point necessarily. That would be very enjoyable, but like, what else? So then I said, I'm going to just going to go episode ten, episode 20, episode 30, episode 40. Um, [01:18:00] and so very quickly, I ended up with the Henryk Ross episode.

Tamar: [01:18:06] Oh God.

Julie: [01:18:09] And yeah, Henryk Ross episode and was just absolutely destroyed while walking down the bike path. Um, and what just like wasn't, you know, didn't just hadn't like thought a lot about like, I didn't read anything about it. I just started listening. And so I'm glad I.

Tamar: [01:18:26] Wasn't that one.

Julie: [01:18:28] Oh yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't aware of him, you know, for all the reasons you point out in the in the episode, like it's not the, it's not the, um, the ghetto that wasn't well known. It wasn't they, they had this problematic leader who sort of helped the Nazis do their thing. And anyway, and then I spent a lot of time looking at the photos, uh, later that day. So, um, that was like a real 1 to 1 learn something was deeply affected by it and really grateful to know about it and really bummed out [01:19:00] that it wasn't currently on at the MFA. So I could go look at the photos in person. Um, but you know, yeah, so that one was very powerful. And then I did sort of cheat. I think that, um, Egon, she, Sheila, she, you pronounce his name differently than I ever had. So I learned how to pronounce his name, but it wasn't exactly on the ten, 20, 30, but it was close. And he really was like a big, big favorite of mine. So I wanted to listen to that because, um, I was curious how people would talk about, you know, how confronting his images are and off putting and and sort of disturbing. And yet the kind of punk spirit of it is, I think how you phrased it, even, you know, is very strong. And maybe it's like a college age thing to be drawn to, to be contrary. But that one was fun as well. Contrary and deeply.

Tamar: [01:19:49] Hormonal.

Julie: [01:19:51] Yes, definitely. And like, so, you know, beyond narcissistic, but like, wow, we would really resonate with the nows, which I just like am [01:20:00] so aghast at how obsessed people are with themselves all the time in every way. And so, um, anyway, yeah, so that one, um, and then honestly, with American Gothic, like I didn't, if you had asked me, I didn't know the painter's name. Like it's just like something that's out there that I thought I knew something about, but actually I learned all these factoids about. So that was, that was fun. Because then, you know, it's like the most maybe obvious thing you could learn about, about art history, but it actually was pretty interesting. Um, and then I listened to an interview that someone did with you about your getting into this all as a storyteller. And so that was, you know, that was another place that made me think, oh, the podcast is as much about, you know, your journey and your trajectory as it is about the episodes that we're hearing and what we're all learning along with you. So, um, those are the few that stand out.

Tamar: [01:20:53] Thank you so much for listening.

Julie: [01:20:56] Oh, sure. I mean, now I'm just kind of like, all right, I got to chip away.

Tamar: [01:21:00] Because. [01:21:00]

Julie: [01:21:00] I mean, I have listened quite a lot over the years, but I hear it differently now, of course, because we know each other more. And I've been thinking about it more because, um, partly because of hub and spoke and just because of what's going on around us and how it's maintained this real independence, like true independent spirit and really garnered lots of excellent recognition. So I'm really, I'm really happy for you that that has happened. It hasn't been completely, you know, unnoticed at all. It really has been noticed. So I think you should be really very proud of what you've done and that sort of bringing art to the masses one piece at a time. I mean, it's, it's, it's been, it does that it has in a way, I hope it will continue to do that. And, and, and allows you to also explore some other ways of presenting the information and, and learning yourself about, about, you know, what your interests are.

Tamar: [01:21:52] Yeah, I am proud. I, it feels good to say that into a microphone. Good and, and [01:22:00] cringey. But no, I am proud and.

Julie: [01:22:03] Just put on a loop.

Speaker 21: [01:22:04] Yeah. As we're.

Julie: [01:22:05] As we're closing this out, you know, into the credits.

Tamar: [01:22:07] Yeah. It's just, it's so, it's so nice to feel like you have permission to take a step back from constantly hustling and striving and, and the goalposts shift every time you, you accomplish something, all you can see is the next goal. It's like the next episode, you know? Great. You got that one out. When's the next one coming out? Because this is a uniquely, I feel like with this industry, it's it's you uniquely disappear when you stop producing because you were only just air in somebody's ears. You know, like it's relentless.

Julie: [01:22:44] It really is. And it is.

Tamar: [01:22:46] So that that constant sense of, if I don't get something out there, I'm I'm gone. This career that I've built is just going to disappear. That stress has absolutely [01:23:00] dampened, you know, being able to really see like, look around and see how far this has all come. And so, you know, maybe you just need a milestone every now and then to, to look around and say, you know, ten years ago today, I was so full of, of excitement and fear and, you know, I still wasn't even comfortable listening to the sound of my own voice, but I just put it out there because I thought maybe someday it would get me a job in this industry. And it became my job. And I am I am so grateful. And I am really proud of of everything that I've made up to this point and, and that I know I can keep making.

Julie: [01:23:48] So glad to hear you say that. I really am. And I hope that people also struggling to, to make their shows and, and, and feel like they're doing themselves justice in what they're [01:24:00] doing, hear that and understand, um, you know, from someone who knows how hard it is, uh, the maker community is very sympathetic, very supportive. Um, we're all sort of, there's a lot of commiseration that goes on and all of that, but still you have to come to the realization on your own for it to really be valid. And I'm really glad that you have and that you're making a point to to celebrate this moment. It's so few people reach it. And so, um, I think it, I think it speaks volumes that, um, that you wanted to mark it with an episode and have the conversation and I, and I, you know, I can hear the wheels turning about the next 30 episodes and hopefully beyond as well. And so, um, yeah, I guess we all have those to look forward to.

Tamar: [01:24:47] Thank you. Thank you for joining me in this celebration, Julie. I appreciate it more than you know.

Julie: [01:24:52] Oh it's been absolutely a pleasure.