TLP Interview with Helena De Groot, Audio Producer and Sound Artist

Helena De Groot: [00:00:01] Like this is the phase of the project where I let go of control, not the thing I'm best at, you know? So but this is for me an exercise in letting go of control. So I'm going to give you the reins.

Tamar Avishai: [00:00:13] Okay. Well, this is like labor. Just give it over.

This is The Lonely Palette, the podcast that returns art history to the masses. One object at a time. And some days, one interview about creativity, creation, and being human at a time. I'm Tamar Avishai, and what is about to follow is a conversation about craft and care with the audio producer, really the audio artist Helena de Groot, whose series Creation Myth just dropped in full as part of the CBC's show. Personally, that's the name of the show. Personally, it's [00:01:00] it's about the most personal experiences that audio makers probe within themselves. They lay themselves bare for our benefit as all the best memoirs do. Creation myth is ostensibly a series about the question whether or not to have kids, but as you'll hear both in listening to the series itself and to my conversation with Helena today, it's about the creative process itself, creating life both your own and another person's creating stories. How these stories give us life and creating art. Art that reaches people, sometimes in surprising places. After the break, my conversation with Helena De Groot.

Tamar Avishai: [00:03:37] Okay, how do I pronounce your name in a way that is that is respectful to the Dutch language? Without calling you Helena DeGroot? How would you.

Helena De Groot: [00:03:51] Thank you very much. Uh, so I, I say, Helena, the. But the sound [00:04:00] doesn't exist in English. So I think maybe what I would really love is like, as if you say growth, like, you know, a growth spurt, but without the th but just the T at the end. Helena. De Groot. Like that. Helena. De Groot.

Tamar Avishai: [00:04:19] Helena De Groot.

Helena De Groot: [00:04:20] Yes. Fabulous.

Tamar Avishai: [00:04:25] So we met under some pretty unique circumstances, maybe not unique for the kinds of people who are drawn to the work we do, but certainly unique in general. Because I was coming to New York for a, an audio summit, and you were somebody who had offered up your apartment. You were just gonna go off to your boyfriend's house and give me your apartment for a couple of days, no questions asked. You were going to let me sleep [00:05:00] in your bed and. And brush my teeth in your sink. And drink your coffee. Um, and I think that kind of the opportunity to just step into your life that way felt like a really appropriate way for us to meet because it said to me, the kind of person that you were. Um, and it meant a lot to me to be able to respect that and to be kind of invited right in. Almost like I was invited into your underwear. Um, and so thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. And you know, you've just, you've just released this series that is basically asking everyone into your, I don't want to say your underwear because that has connotations, but you know, into the most vulnerable side of yourself. That is not easy to do. I want to hear a lot about how you were able to do [00:06:00] that. But but we'll we'll get there.

Helena De Groot: [00:06:02] Sure, sure.

Tamar Avishai: [00:06:03] We are both creators. And I wanted to start with thinking about what kind of what it is to decide to create. Um, your show is called Creation Myth. Give a quick and dirty summary of what it's about. But then what is it really about?

Helena De Groot: [00:06:33] Yeah. The way I usually introduce the show is it's a memoir about my decision not to have kids. That's not entirely true because it's way more complicated than that. It wasn't like a decision, right? It was an ever shifting target. You could hardly call it a decision, you know? Um, but I guess my grappling with the decision not to have kids, uh, the log line, whatever [00:07:00] that thing is called. Subtitle is the mother of all questions questioned. You know, like, do you want kids? I think it it is to me, still one of the biggest question that any human being will have to answer if they're lucky to have the choice, you know, and it changes everything about your life. Um, whether you do or don't do it. And so I, I wanted to make a show that takes you into the very messy process of making a decision that can feel at times impossible and the myth part. So creation, obviously, I guess it, you know, the creation of a new human, the creation, as you already said, the creation of art. Like you know, you can make other things right. You can think, you can make things besides a human. Um, but the myth part has [00:08:00] to do with all of the stories that exist, people telling me that there is no greater love than having a kid.

Helena De Groot: [00:08:09] That I will regret it. That I will never understand love until I have a kid. You know all those things, right? And then there are the stories that I told myself. I am not cut out to be a parent. I have too many mental health struggles. I'm too scared of the unknown. You know, like all of those things are not set in stone truths. They are stories. And I think stories can be questioned and retold. And so that is what I want to do with creation myth. Tell my story in a way that shows you the seams. You know, like it's kind of a messy story. And I'm going to show you how messy it is. And yeah, what it means to actually sit with that mess. And I'm going to show you that process. And I think that will already complicate [00:09:00] a lot of stories, right? The story of like, I don't want kids and I'm absolutely sure and you know, like, I'm so happy with this choice. Like it is more complicated than that. And I want to share that so that other people can feel less alone. Hopefully, you know.

Tamar Avishai: [00:09:16] Yeah, that's, that's funny because that's exactly the way that I articulated when I told my story of having a kid. It's like, you know, how to make people who have been through this feel less alone. Um, and I think that like, without even thinking about the audience who's interested right now in hearing about this, this question asking about whether or not to have a kid or the audience that is, that has had kids and, and doesn't think they're interested in this story. I mean, what I want to actually zoom in on first is exactly what you [00:10:00] talk about. I want to see this mess because first of all, it's not a mess. It is beautiful. The sound design and the way that you constructed this series is an artwork in itself. And I would love to talk to you more about, uh, or at least let's start with kind of the artistry of the sound design because you have made this, um, kind of wall to wall soundscape that supports a very vulnerable narrative, you know, very personal memoiristic narrative storytelling. But as you're experiencing it, we're kind of there with you because you, you do so much like. Like so much that I wouldn't even be able to articulate because it all just kind of flows so beautifully. Um, underscoring the sense of place. And so I would love to hear from you kind [00:11:00] of how, how you do it. Is that too big a question? You know, how do you paint this kind of picture for the ear?

Helena De Groot: [00:11:11] Yeah. Well, if you're okay with that, I'm going to take the long way around. Please. So I was raised in a family of musicians. You know, my mom was a professional singer. My dad wanted to be a pianist, but his parents were like, no, you're going to get a real job. So he became an architect, but he played the piano every day. And so my dad would play the piano and accompany my mom. That was one of the things he did, you know, and and she would sing. And for me, like when I think about my childhood, I've not had more beautiful, a more beautiful experience than that to be in a home filled with music, you know, and to just be there. And sometimes I would participate, I would harmonize with my mom or I would play, you know, like [00:12:00] both of my dad and me at the piano at the same time. But a lot of it was just listening, you know, listening to them make music, listening to what they were playing. Uh, you know what records they were playing? Uh, I'm from the 80s. I guess I'm dating myself. Um. Me too. Yeah. So my mother actually started taking singing lessons. She had been singing since she was young, but she went to conservatory when she was pregnant with me. And because singing is something that you do with your body.

Helena De Groot: [00:12:34] I was living inside her instrument like I was being tested, right? Like my first experience as a being was inside music. And so that has to play a role, right? I don't know exactly how then that. I can't draw a direct line from. And that is why I do this in that way. But it [00:13:00] does mean that my first language is music. My touchstone, my sort of emotional center, you know, is, is music. And so I think one of the because I love literature, you know, I really. And there was a lot of there were a lot of books growing up too, you know. Um, but what I love about what we do, you know, making stories and sound is that you have this extra layer, like you can tell a story. And I have like, there's a lot of writing that goes into my episode. There's also or my show. There's also interviews and, you know, tape of me just sort of talking to myself, trying to process things. But there's a lot of me actually sitting down and spending a lot of time trying to write. You know, the story and my thoughts and what it was like to be going through this experience at this time. So that that is definitely, [00:14:00] I would just call it literature.

Helena De Groot: [00:14:01] I feel a little pretentious saying that, but I'm going to own it. That is literature, you know, that's where I took all of my cues from, right from the books I have been reading my whole life. But then once that is done, I have this whole other layer to play with. You know, that an author doesn't have. And the way I've thought about it, you know what? I'm going to do the technical thing first, and then I'll make it sort of more emotionally and felt, if that's okay with you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the technical thing is I see music as what point of view is in a book? So like if you're reading a story or a novel, right, you have the story, like you have the plot. What happens? You have the perspective of the character who is living that story. Um, they might be taking their misfortune with a lot of ease, you know, or they [00:15:00] might hide themselves away, you know, shut themselves off from the world, like, right. How does a character respond to the plot, the stuff that's happening to them? That's one layer. And then there's the layer of the author, right? The person who is, who has created this character and who is describing what is happening to them and how the character feels about that.

Helena De Groot: [00:15:23] And that layer I really lean on the music to. Signal, you know, like I hope that the list, like, for instance, there are moments in the show where I can see now that I was being a little dramatic, you know, like I was having big feelings about a thing that was like not that serious. And music then allows me like I would just, I would write that scene. I would really put myself in like the big feelings that I was having then. And I would take you into my thoughts and like everything, [00:16:00] like the, the, you know, the drama. I would, I would, the words would be the drama and then the music would be sort of comedic, a little funny. So I can just sort of, you know, I can put things in perspective a little bit like, look, I the author, I know that this was a little over the top, you know, and I know that you know it also the listener. So we're just like, we're winking at each other right now, the way that you would maybe like crack a smile at your partner when you have a kid and they're having like an epic meltdown over the fact that this cheese has a hole in it that's not perfectly round, you know?

Tamar Avishai: [00:16:33] Yeah, I imagine a kind of arrested development. Narrator. Say, you know, it's like the character will say, like, I think this is true. And the narrator says it wasn't.

Helena De Groot: [00:16:43] Yes, exactly. And that's what I try. And what I love about like an author has to do all of that in words, right? And I have music to lean on. So I let the music do a lot of the talking, you know, and that is r. I love that because you can also. Yeah, as I said, like you [00:17:00] can, you can underline a moment. There are moments where the character is going through something very difficult and sad and the music is sad. Sometimes I just want to take you there. Like I just want you, the listener, to feel what I felt in that moment, you know, or something like it. Um, but sometimes you can. Yeah, you can sort of contradict yourself, right? You can sort of or foreshadowing is another thing, right? Like there's a part in the show where I'm saying how happy I am and how amazing my life is and how everything is going well and the music underneath is sad. So of course, as a listener, you're like, oh, you're tipped off what's going to happen. And then what happens is that my husband tells me that he's leaving me. So I love that you can do all that with music. So that's the technical part. The practical part is I have a, I use a database called [00:18:00] APM, and it's a giant sinkhole of a place. Like you can spend the rest of your life clicking through their library. It is enormous. I've never found the end of it. And you can find anything from experimental jazz to folk music to sound experiments that were recorded at like some academic institution in France in the 1970s to music from Ethiopia to you know what I mean? Like trap and dancehall. Like any just think of any type of music. And there is something like that in the library, which is amazing. And which also means it can be really hard to find the right thing.

Tamar Avishai: [00:18:43] I was going to say how, how do you narrow it down?

Helena De Groot: [00:18:47] I think what it is, is like the willingness to spend an unreasonable amount of time on it, you know? You know, these artworks where it's like an entire [00:19:00] room, like a museum room filled with these little, you know, porcelain rice grains painted with it. You know what I mean? Like, what is this artwork about? You know, like, like what, what it's showing is the endurance and the insanity of the artist to spend that much time. Right? And it's a little bit like that. I hope it doesn't feel that way. I hope it feels a lot more natural.

Tamar Avishai: [00:19:26] No, no, that's that's just it. I mean, you know, when musicians make audio and they understand the music to use, the problem is it's doing its job so well that it disappears and you almost feel, as a listener, like you conjured it under. Under what the under what the voice is saying. Yeah. And I was actually going to ask you, if you do, you swap out, you know, 20 different tracks [00:20:00] in order to find the one that's just right? Or do you kind of put it in and you just know, and, and you just, you, you set it and forget it and move on.

Helena De Groot: [00:20:11] Ah, what do you think?

Tamar Avishai: [00:20:13] I honestly, I don't know, I do both. Oh, I do okay. Okay. I'm gonna imagine that you you try 20 different ones.

Helena De Groot: [00:20:20] Oh, and 20 is a very low number.

Tamar Avishai: [00:20:22] Yeah.

Helena De Groot: [00:20:23] And of course, I don't, you know, I don't try like I don't have to plop them in there. Right. Like I don't for every piece of music, download the file, drag it into the thing. Like I don't do that. What I often do is hit play in my tape. You know what I mean? The audio that I'm trying to score in my Reaper session. You know, the software that I use, I hit play on that. And then I also hit play on the music in the online database, right? Yeah. And I get a sense of like, are these things talking to each other in a way that I find interesting? And of course, they aren't perfectly lined up yet. And like, you know, you might download it and put it under [00:21:00] and be like, actually, it's not working after all. But the first sort of rough, you know, experiment is, well, the first thing I listen and what is the, what is the, the first sort of, uh, selection criteria is do I like this music? Yeah. You know, like I'm not going to use a track that I don't like. And even if it's like music, I would never play and listen to that, it can still be something in it that I appreciate. You know. And so that is the first thing. And then does it work in the in the place, you know. And I think what I know when it's the right one because when it's the right one, happy accidents come in. You know, like the music changes at exactly the place. To give you one example, there's a scene where I Google my way to a video of a tubal ligation.

Tamar Avishai: [00:21:57] I texted you when you sent it. [00:22:00] When I first listened to it because I loved it so much. Go on. Yes.

Helena De Groot: [00:22:04] And it is, you know, the this person that is being operated on, right, is like flat on the operating table, knocked out by the anesthesia, right? And then there's like you, The video takes you like from the incision to like inside this person, right? It's like a laparoscopic camera situation. So you like see their intestines and they're. Like every, everything. And I'm trying to do a lot of work in the writing, right? Like I use the words, it looked like a bouncy house where everything was rolling and swaying. You know, like everything dangerously together, like bladder and.

Tamar Avishai: [00:22:40] Yeah, no, I was I was right there with you.

Helena De Groot: [00:22:42] Right. But then so I thought like, okay, well, I have done everything I can with the words. Now let me find the music that will take this to the next level and the music, oh, I feel like I have to back up. Okay. I think you can cut this in there or, you [00:23:00] know, let me just start over because then you don't have to cut it. So there's a part in the show where I go on Reddit to find, what is it like to have your tubes tied, like people who have done it? What has that experience been like? And you know how Reddit is, you know, people have strong opinions and strong feelings and they, they shout and they swear and they share very vulnerable stories. And, you know, it's, it's everything. And so I went on there and I didn't want to see the stories of like people who had a great time. Right. I wanted to see, okay, where has it really gone wrong? What is the risk that I'm that I would be taking? And so I, I, I, um, I read a few of these posts that people have posted of their own bad experience. And there's one post of a woman who says, who wants advice and her husband has like really intense anxiety. And so he thinks that he will have lifelong pain if he has a vasectomy, because he read a study somewhere that like some tiny [00:24:00] percentage of men have that. And so this woman was like, so now I'm thinking, should I get my tubes tied? Okay, what do you all think? Okay. So then I write the response like the replies were swift, you know, because of course, you have this barrage of people with their strong opinions being like, I'm so sick of men being so fragile. So anyway, I started scoring that, so I, I found a piece of music that is choral, which you don't often use because the, the to get it really technical, like the, the frequency of the human voice, like it doesn't pair well with other human voices. They get in the way of.

Tamar Avishai: [00:24:37] Each.

Helena De Groot: [00:24:37] Other. They fight each other. Yeah. So like a piano is great, you know, a marimba.

Tamar Avishai: [00:24:42] A marimba, of course. Yeah, yeah.

Helena De Groot: [00:24:45] But you know, it's it's not as great with voices, obviously. But here I was like, no, I need the voices because this is a chorus of voices on Reddit, all having opinions. How could it not be a chorus of voices, right? So I found a piece of music [00:25:00] that had wordless, also important, wordless choral sort of harmonizing that became busier and busier as it went. So it's one voice first. So I imagined, okay, that's the question asker, right? And then I say the the replies were swift and you hear like a lot of voices coming in. And then there's all these people saying what they feel. And then at some point. And that's what I mean with the lucky accident. When I, when I read that post of this one person who says, I'm so sick of men being so or like men being treated as if they're so fragile, right? As she mentions the word man or men, the male voices came in to this piece of music. Like what I mean? Just just one of those moments where like, wow, I want to just stand up for my desk and thank the heavens, you know? I want to thank something or someone. I don't [00:26:00] know what. You know, so, so those lucky accidents then I know that I've, I found the right track, but it takes a while before you find a lucky, quote unquote, accident. You know, it's like luck favors the prepared. It's one of those.

Tamar Avishai: [00:26:13] Exactly. I was going to say you have to set yourself up for luck. You have to. You have to put in this time and this this care into listening. Something else that you do in that segment. And I think we'll play the excerpt.

Helena De Groot: [00:26:28] But the post that got to me had a different tone altogether. I want to gently remind you. It read that your husband's anxiety is not a good reason to have major abdominal surgery. On the next line. This person had posted two video links for side by side comparison. I clicked on the tubal ligation first. You should skip ahead a minute if you're squeamish. It [00:27:00] starts innocently enough. The camera takes us from the patient flat on the operating table. Knocked out by the anesthesia Yeah, to a close up of the incision. And finally we plunge inside into this pink and orange world. It looked like a bouncy house where everything was swaying, lulling uterus, ovaries, bladder, intestines, all dangerously close together. Then something like pliers or tweezers came in and started tugging and pulling at the flesh. But when I saw white smoke rise up like at a barbecue, I clicked away and started watching the vasectomy. Three white gloved fingers cradling a ball sac. Feeling okay so far? The doctor says, yeah, we're good. The owner of the ballsack responds, because with a vasectomy, there's no need for heavy anesthesia. That, by the way, carries the risk of death. Only [00:28:00] when I was halfway through did I see a single drop of blood.

Tamar Avishai: [00:28:09] When you are looking up the the medical. You know, the procedural differences between how between how involved a tubal ligation is versus a vasectomy. Um, the way that the music identifies the absurdity of that contrast had me laughing out loud. And I don't laugh out loud at podcasts very much, but it was so funny. It was so well, well pointed to, you know, and again, it's like you didn't need to say that out loud. That was something that it's like the music took what the listener in was feeling subconsciously and, and managed to subconsciously [00:29:00] work it into the voice tracking. Yes. Um, and yeah, that is much harder to do than it sounds because by the time you're listening as a listener, all this work has been done for you and it, it disappears and you, you didn't realize that it had been done in order to let your own imagination and your own, um, emotional reaction and resonance to what's being said. You kind of feel like you're doing it. But no, the producer has done it and it takes a good producer to do that. And my, my question then is, why are why are so many shows bad at it? Because it's like they treat music. I want to pull from Better Call Saul like a chimp with [00:30:00] a machine gun. It. It's it can be so distracting and it's so overwrought. And it's so manipulative.

Helena De Groot: [00:30:09] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [00:30:10] How do you kind of listen for that and and manage to pull it back?

Helena De Groot: [00:30:19] Yeah. To go. Well, let me go back to my childhood. I really as a kid, I wanted to be a little adult. You know, I didn't particularly like the experience of being a kid. So I really wanted to learn sort of the code words of the adult world and a word that my mother would use when she would look at something, you know, something in a shop window or when we were listening to a piece of music or anything like that. She would say, oh, that's Kitch. And I didn't know what Kitch meant. Like for a kid, it's very layered, right? Because you have to have a lot of context. You have to have a lot of like a picture of a sunset is kitch not [00:31:00] because a sunset isn't pretty, but because this is the most stereotypical thing, like. Yeah, everyone agrees it's pretty. Just don't, you know, like it's overdone. It's. And of course, as a kid, maybe you've never even seen one picture of a sunset. So. To you, of course, it's not kitsch. So I always felt like, okay, my mother sees something that I. Don't. And I want to figure out what it is. So I'm extremely sensitive to that, to things being overwrought to things being spoon fed. You know, like I want it's actually very nice that you say that as a listener. It feels like. Whatever feeling the listener has that I have in fact manipulated that they have it on their own. Like that is great. That is exactly what I want. I do not ever want anyone to feel manipulated. You know, and I think. Silence [00:32:00] is one of the most powerful tools in the box of a sound designer. You know, because the music is one thing, but then you take it away and all of a sudden it's like you're snapped awake. You're like, oh, you know, something is about to happen.

Tamar Avishai: [00:32:19] That exactly. That was going to be my next question. How do you know when to take it out?

Helena De Groot: [00:32:23] Yeah. I mean, what is interesting actually is that I usually over score it like what I usually it's like with writing, you know what I mean? Like you write the long version first and then you start cutting. So it's kind of like that, you know, I put all the music in that I think is great. And then I listen back and I'm like, I don't need this. Actually, it would be more powerful if it wasn't here, this entire track, this entire paragraph should not be scored or this music is great, but how about I stop it two sentences earlier in the narration? Like for instance, this is a part of the show where my [00:33:00] husband, now ex-husband, comes back from a trip, a surfing trip, and he's injured. You know, it's he's fine, but he can't walk very well. And so I describe that scene, you know, with some humor because it's kind of silly, right? It's a sort of slapstick moment, you know? And I say after like, he can't really sit down, you know? So we stand there a little unsure of our movements, but excited, right. Because he had been on this trip and we hadn't seen each other a while. So I say excited, like two people flirting at the company party, you know? After a little bit, we did move to the kitchen table and I cut out the music there and I supported him while he inched closer and closer down until we sat on chairs and his face turned serious. So I've already taken out the music. So you already know, like, oh, we're moving to the kitchen table. Something is about to happen at this kitchen table, but it's only.

Helena De Groot: [00:33:58] However many words later that I say. [00:34:00] His face turned serious. When. You know for sure that something is about to happen. And what is the thing that happens? While he was in the cab on the way from the airport. He got in a phone call from his mom. His sister had died that night, you know, so like, I think you can again, it's like foreshadowing, but almost with a negative image, like you take the music out and that helps you say something like, you have to pay attention now, you know, and I love that you can do that with, with silence. Um, like I think silence is so powerful. Like, for instance, there's a scene where I describe the abusive household that my mother grew up in. That episode was so hard to score. It's a very sad episode. I talk about a lot of heavy things, including suicide and there's especially this little voice that is like, don't do kitch, [00:35:00] don't do it. You know, like it's very loud. It's not a little voice, you know, like it's, it's really like on the, at the forefront of my mind. And especially when I score, like I feel so horrible that my mother was abused as a kid, but she does not want me to feel horrible for her and she does not feel horrible for herself. Like she's incredibly strong. It has made her who she is. She loves her life and yes, she is traumatized forever. And also she has built a life for herself that is incredibly rich and loving, right? So I would violate her experience if I were to use sad music.

Tamar Avishai: [00:35:44] Yeah. And we hear her talk, we hear her talk, and it's in Dutch and you're translating and you can hear the emotion in your voice, but not in hers, which is actually something that I really was [00:36:00] struck by because you were, you know, we would hear her speaking, we would wait for the translation. And there was so much more, um, you know, kind of emotional heft and poignancy in the way that you were translating some really tough stuff. And she sounded pretty jaunty, you know, you wouldn't have been able to tell when she hit the word. That would be traumatizing. You can't hear that from her. And yeah, I think if you had put, you know, very sad music under it, it would have done a disservice. You know, it would have confused our ears because she wasn't sad talking about it.

Helena De Groot: [00:36:48] And she was. And that is something I can hear. But it's like when your partner looks tired, you who know them well, you know that. But someone who doesn't know them well doesn't. You know, it's kind of one of those [00:37:00] things. But she was a lot. I mean, I was sobbing and she was very restrained, but of course I could hear her sadness.

Tamar Avishai: [00:37:05] Yeah, yeah. There's, um. I feel like this is going to be very, very Vince Gilligan reference heavy, but there's a great Bryan Cranston interview where he's talking about as an actor, you don't need to cry on camera. Like your character doesn't need to cry, your character needs to try not to cry. And that is where your audience, they now are trying not to cry, and how much more powerful it is to understand the difference. And I feel like, you know, we we always have to restrain ourselves that that we have to give our audience enough credit to know that something is sad without having it be spelled out for them. And to honor [00:38:00] the strength of the person telling that story while still fitting this person's story into this larger narrative. You know, not not wanting to treat them as a puzzle piece, but also they're kind of a puzzle piece as you're putting together this. You know, as you're weaving together this, this whole narrative. And yeah, it's, it's very, very hard. It requires an enormous amount of empathy.

Helena De Groot: [00:38:25] Yeah. I mean, I think it's just the gift of how layered you can make things in audio. And if you can make things layered, why not do that? You know what I mean? It's like you have all these dimensions to play. And why would you make a flat world? Why would you do that? Let the music do what you're already doing in the writing. You have an ability to say something. I feel that very deeply. I feel it deeply when it's done poorly. And I feel it deeply when it's done well. And for me, the music never disappears. It's interesting. I once went to a movie with my sister [00:39:00] who was a lot less musical than I am. We went to a movie together, shutter Island. Have you ever seen.

Tamar Avishai: [00:39:05] Oh yeah.

Helena De Groot: [00:39:07] Yeah. So it's basically like the movie's about an asylum, like a mental institution, right? And so it's, it's about people who aren't all there in sort of, you know, their grasp on reality. And afterwards I asked my sister, wow, did you hear that music? It was terrific. Like all these composers that I love Ligeti, Schnittke, like Stockhausen, they were, you know, these experimental, avant garde, 20th century weirdo guys who were making things that were not necessarily nice to listen to. Right. And my sister had not noticed that, had not noticed a single piece of music because, as you say, like she was for her, the world was being created in part by the music, but she was just fully in the world. But I know that music, so obviously I will hear it, you know? And I was like, and I'm a professional audio blah, blah, you know? So like I listen for that always. So it's never invisible [00:40:00] to me, you know? But just like if I go to the met and I look at a painting, I don't see the skill. I just see the painting. And someone who's actually a painter will know exactly what it took, you know?

Tamar Avishai: [00:40:14] Yeah. I had a dam break open for me, which I'm not super happy about when I actually really, um, you know, I've played guitar since I was 13 and I, I kind of assumed that the gulf between myself and what professional musicians could play or were playing was totally un Unbridgeable. And something happened. You know, a couple, couple decades ago where I realized that almost every pop and rock song was just the one, four, five and that these [00:41:00] songs that really it's, you know, so much is done in the studio, so much is done with production. You know, it's like, even if it's just, you know, g d if one, you know, if you've got your rhythm guitar and then you come in with like a great electric guitar or a piano or something, and you really flesh it out and you, you brighten it and you make it so powerful. But then I'll listen and it's like, like, God, that's only three chords. I can play those chords. And it, it was very cool. And then it became a bit of a bummer to see, you know, it was nice to know that that so few chords could make such great music. And at the same time, it broke the illusion a little bit that everybody was was creating, you know, this like powerful little universe every time I put on my headphones. Yeah. And I found that too. I don't know about you. I don't know if, if [00:42:00] you feel like this is a loss at all, that you can't lose yourself entirely in the like in the gestalt now of something that requires both the audio editing and the filmmaking. And you know that you, you do kind of separate yourself when you hear the edits or even hear the lack of edits and you think, oh, this was so well done that you can still, can you still lose yourself in these artistic or audio or musical experiences? Or do you just kind of allow, you know, that you're going to see the you're going to see the seams, but that's okay. You can still appreciate the talent that went into it.

Helena De Groot: [00:42:38] With a podcast. It's very, very hard for me to, to let it let the gestalt, as you say in, you know, like I will always analyze it and that's okay. That's fine. You know? Also because podcasting is not where like. For what I make, I take [00:43:00] my cues from literature and from musicians and I put them together. I don't take my cues from other podcasts, so I don't mind it listening to other podcasts and analyzing them. You know, I would mind that very much if that would be my experience with music. Like if I would go to a concert, like my mom is a singer. And at some point I wanted to be a singer. And she cautioned me because she was like, you will never again be able to go to a concert and just enjoy it. And that's really stuck with me, and I'm grateful that I didn't do that. Like, I am still just an amateur of music. Sure, I dabble and I play piano, but not you know, it hasn't changed my. I mean, I know a lot about music, but there's. When it's a good concert, there is always a moment where I forget all of that, where I am transported, you know, and I. And allow for both. Like I like that I have a certain level of analysis, you know, and then I also love [00:44:00] that at some point, the analysis knows that it is no longer needed. Services are no longer needed. You know, now I just want to feel stuff.

Tamar Avishai: [00:44:08] Yeah.

Helena De Groot: [00:44:09] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [00:44:10] Okay. So let's, let's pivot a little bit. So all of this technical and, and sound design is in the service of the story you're telling. Um, and again, before we actually get to the content of what you're talking about, because I do want to talk a little bit about, about, you know, the decision whether or not to have kids because it's it's very meaningful to me personally. I want to talk about, you know, we've gone from the art of, of the sound design to the art of the memoir. Before you even talk about how you do you on this incredible amount of. Of vulnerability, compromise, [00:45:00] sacrifice, depth to, to write an eight part series about this incredibly personal story. Um, were there other artists or memoirists or poets you say you kind of you talk about literature that you felt you could kind of draw on to help guide you through this process and yourself?

Helena De Groot: [00:45:32] Yeah. Are so many. And funnily enough, rarely memoir actually. I think what I like is inspiration that comes from the side, you know, like I don't want to look at someone else doing what I want to do and then look at it because then, you know, I'm a little bit of a control freak. I have struggled for a long time calling myself an artist because I was [00:46:00] always like, well, I'm too much of a paint by numbers person because I want to like, I'm a good student. I want to do everything correctly, you know, and art is not about doing things correctly. It's about doing things your way, you know, and following the wildness that comes with actually following your way, uh, as you are discovering it, you know? And so what I need to feed my inner artist and to allow that inner wildness is taking my cues from people who are not doing what I'm doing, because then I cannot look at that and try and copy it, you know? And so one of my greatest inspirations is the Belarusian oral historian Svetlana Alexievich. She won the Nobel Prize for literature. So like she is, you know, I, you know, sure, she's an oral historian, but the things that she makes [00:47:00] out of these oral history interviews are considered by, you know, the most prestigious prize in the world, I suppose, literature, and I agree with them. So what she will do is she will take one subject, for instance, the the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Helena De Groot: [00:47:19] Um, and she will talk to hundreds of people in depth. She will take years to sit with people at their kitchen table. And what she, what the book will be about is a kind of tapestry of voices. So like every chapter is a different person telling their story. It's like non-narrative, as they say in our business. So she does not you don't hear her question or you don't read her questions. You don't read her commentary. None of that. All you read is that person in their own words, uh, telling their own story. Of course, she's all over the thing because she has asked the questions in real life, right? [00:48:00] And she has edited the material. So like, of course, this is her work. Um, but what I admire very much about her book is that she says in the introduction, I want this book to be about this period, right? The transition from communism to capitalism, what it was like to live through and what it was like to live under communism, obviously. Right. So you can ask about that. But she says, the last thing I will ever do is ask people, what was it like to live under communism? Like, that's not a question. You know what I mean? How was your what was it like? Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [00:48:40] How was it like to be a mom?

Helena De Groot: [00:48:41] Right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, that's not a question. And so what she would do is say, you know, like, tell me about the first time that you fell in love or whatever. I don't know, because her questions, as I said, are not in there, but just judging from the, the [00:49:00] things that people say, that's what I imagine. Of course, again, as a professional interviewer, I like to analyze this stuff. So I have been trying to, you know, reverse engineer her questions. And those are, I'm sure, some of the questions that she asks. Tell me about your first love. Tell me about, um, you know, the communication between your parents, like when, you know, they would come home from work. What would their banter be like? Would they be? Would there be a lot of silence at the kitchen table? Just tell me about that. Like anything. And so you learn about someone's whole world. And then when you know them and you've sat with them and you know what they love, and you know that this first crush that he came biking on his bicycle and had brought her a bouquet of like wildflowers that he had plucked. And you know what I mean? Like, now that I know that and now that I care about this person, then when she tells the story of the day [00:50:00] that her dad was arrested and brought to the Gulag and he never came back, it's a very different feeling that you get as a reader, because not only do you know and care for this person, but it also shows something that I think is so important and that we often forget. It's that history, however big, right? It always happens in the context of a life, and that life is infinitely bigger than even the biggest history.

Tamar Avishai: [00:50:38] Yeah.

Helena De Groot: [00:50:39] And that has been really like my greatest example for what I've made. Like, sure, this is a story about this decision if I want to have kids or not. But like, this question exists in a life and that life is about much more than that question. And so what [00:51:00] I wanted to do was make sure that I have a lot of these different strands in there, you know, so that you get a sense of the fullness of this life that this story, that this question happens to be a big part of. But it's definitely not the only part. And I think you can only like it makes it makes this all very specific, right? Because like, there's nothing more boring to me. I mean, let's not go that far, but it's very boring to me when like, I don't like to read any sort of demographic stuff about the kid question. When people are like more and more women are deciding to have, you know, and many of them quote this and that is the reason, like, I will not read that article, you know, I do not care because it's the most personal decision that we can make. And because to me, it's only [00:52:00] interesting in the specific, not in the aggregate, you know? And so what I wanted to do is make it extremely specific because I think it's also the only way to connect, you know, like, sure, it might seem like I can imagine that someone would listen to this and be like, wow, you must really be obsessed with yourself to make a whole show. You know, work for three years.

Tamar Avishai: [00:52:26] Wow.You've got a lot of time on your hands.

Helena De Groot: [00:52:28] Yeah, right. Like, wow. You know. You know that the world is bigger than that, right? But I actually and that's fine. People can have their own experience. You know, like I'm not going to take that as an attack on my work. That's just how they happen to feel about it. That's valid, you know? But I happen to like that kind of work. You know, I like reading the hyper specific experience of one person who sure [00:53:00] has had her whole family wiped away, literally wiped away by the tsunami in Sri Lanka in 2005. It's only something I want to read because it's her telling the story and it's not an aggregate. You know, it's not like people who have lost their families in the tsunami in general. It takes them ten years to become happy again. Like, I don't care about that.

Tamar Avishai: [00:53:26] No, of course. And, and in your, you know, you do this work in the series itself. You, I think you describe your own life as a, as a pinprick of light. That is also the only light you can never know. I mean, I think I'm filling in that second part, but.

Helena De Groot: [00:53:46] No, it's true.

Tamar Avishai: [00:53:47] That is, I mean, this is, I think, what actually has made the kind of memoiristic aspect of writing an audio that that is so powerful. I mean, you [00:54:00] know, a New Yorker article doesn't start with with anything in aggregate. It always sets the stage by giving you the details of a very specific anecdotal moment. I mean, almost to the point where it's cliche, sure. But there is no question That the only way you can bring somebody emotionally into a kind of universal understanding is through these specific, you know, through the bouquet of wildflowers and, and something that already conjures something so specific in your mind. And I feel like I'm always coming in with the listener's perspective. You are the creator and I am the listener that there's no other way to connect with somebody if you're not connecting through these specific details. Our our minds are too overrun with images and with universal [00:55:00] ideas of experiences that when somebody cuts through with the perfect detail, the perfectly chosen simile that it it kind of grabs you a little bit and says, okay, this is a whole person, you know. This is somebody who has the ability to articulate something so specific that, you know, all the complexity of the layers of, you know, like the layers of music underneath and sound. you know, that I'm going to trust this person and open myself up not just to their experience, but to how I relate to their experience.

Helena De Groot: [00:55:43] Yes.

Tamar Avishai: [00:55:44] And in that way, you know, I'm listening. I was listening to your series and I'll just put this out there for people who have kids, you should still listen, you know, like, even though I think I texted you, I was like, the [00:56:00] thing is, a lot of these questions you ask yourself about like, should I like, will I still, you know, once you have the kid, you're like, yeah, you know, it's a much shorter podcast, but. But that doesn't mean you know what you talk about the truths that you get to beneath this question. Asking is so universal, and you get there by being so specific and going in sideways. And I wanted to ask you too, you know, you talk about about this historian kind of going in sideways in order to, to create this kind of patchwork of people's experiences. Are you talking about when you interview other people or when you were interviewing yourself, how did you go in sideways to yourself to be able to talk about about divorce, [00:57:00] heartbreak? You know, far flung, starting over stuff that that gave me palpitations just thinking about it. Yeah.

Helena De Groot: [00:57:11] Well. I think I first need to sort of correct myself a little bit because I think earlier I sounded very like, this is what you should or this is what I know makes for a good blah, blah and not this, you know, but that took a long time for me to figure out, you know, like I can tell you that now with a lot of sort of confidence or whatever. But when I started making the show, it was not at all like that. I had made a pilot episode and I, I, I sent it to my friend and he listened and he was like, it's compelling, but a lot of stuff happens. Too much stuff happens. Like, you know, there are certain beats in the story. You can sort of make a [00:58:00] meal more of a meal out of it, you know, what would it be like if like, you take this one episode and you make it three episodes? And I was like, oh, come on, are you kidding me? Like, that's so self-indulgent. Like, nobody on the planet except my mom is going to care that much about the minutia of my life, you know? And he said this thing that I then promptly put on a sticky note, and that is that has been on my computer during this entire process, you know, because I was like, oh, that's so indulgent. He said, the deeper you go, the less indulgent it will be.

Helena De Groot: [00:58:40] Mhm. Yeah. And so every time that I got scared that I was being too navel gazing or to, you know, like, oh, who cares about that detail? I would look at that quote and strengthen myself. You know, like, okay, I can [00:59:00] do it. Another vulnerable step and I can always take it out, right? Like if I decide at some point, like, actually I don't need that, But why don't you just start by putting it in, you know? And why don't you start by not censoring yourself and not telling yourself that that will probably be boring. So that. So I just wanted to say that, you know, like it was hard and it did it, it took me a while and it was very uncomfortable, as you can imagine. And so I had to, you know, I also didn't do it alone. I think I would have never made. I mean, I know for a fact that I would have never made a show this specific and this vulnerable if it hadn't been for the two people who have helped me make it. My narrative editor, Veronica Simmons, and my love, who also happens to be an audio professional. Brendan Baker.

Tamar Avishai: [00:59:55] One of the best.

Helena De Groot: [00:59:56] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I really lucked out to have [01:00:00] him. He knows me so well and he knows Storytelling so well. And Veronica also, she didn't know me while my niece started, but both of them would gently poke me, push me when I was not going deep enough, you know? And like, especially that, I mean, with every episode, but that episode with my mother, right, which is a very, very, very difficult episode for me to make. I had already cried so much. And just like it was heart wrenching to make that episode, to revisit these extraordinarily painful parts of my childhood. And then Brendan would come in and be like, I'm gonna push you a little, too. You know, I think you can go deeper here. And I would like, I would get angry, but [01:01:00] I would always be like, no, I can't. This is too I don't want to go back there. I've already given everything. And he's very gentle, you know. So he wouldn't. But he would just, like, mention it again the next day. Or he would just ask me a few questions, you know, like, what was that like? And what was that moment like? And how did you feel when such and so happened? And he helped me make such like a non-judgmental, loving. Yeah. He had his hands outstretched for all of my raw emotion, and he made me feel like, okay, I can at least tell him maybe not other people but him. And then because I was able to tell him that sort of full, you know, vibe of vulnerability, right? Then I could sort of have it and be like, okay, now what parts are actually important to the story? So I [01:02:00] couldn't have done it alone is what I'm trying to say.

Tamar Avishai: [01:02:02] Yeah.

Helena De Groot: [01:02:02] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:02:03] You know, it's it's interesting because that episode. It's episode five. And so you've already heard four episodes of you telling your own story and reinforcing your own doubt. You know, as contradictory as that is.

Helena De Groot: [01:02:27] And yeah, I had a lot of certainty in my own doubt. Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:02:32] Um, and again, as somebody who was listening, who did not relate to the struggle in the same way, you know, I'm listening to this as I am like picking up my kids from school and making dinner.

Helena De Groot: [01:02:54] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:02:55] Um, and thinking, you know, there was a part of me that was Absolutely [01:03:00] absorbed in your story and fully present in it. And another part of me that would that would separate myself a little bit and say, how can this question be weighed without all the information? Which, to be fair, some people that you talk to say to you.

Helena De Groot: [01:03:24] Yeah, right.

Tamar Avishai: [01:03:26] And it's very much the first question of a parent when somebody says, I don't want to have kids to say, but you don't know what you're saying no to.

Helena De Groot: [01:03:42] Right?

Tamar Avishai: [01:03:44] And I always have to tamp down that voice because I have a lot of friends who have chosen not to have kids or not chosen. You know, I mean, but that's another story.

Helena De Groot: [01:03:57] Sure.

Helena De Groot: [01:03:57] That's yeah, I really that's so painful [01:04:00] and I am I hope that my story is not upsetting to them, but yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:04:03] Anyway, no, no I.

Helena De Groot: [01:04:05] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:04:06] Yeah. No, that's, that's a whole other podcast. Yeah. Um, so it's like, that's kind of the, the headspace I was in as I was making my way through the episodes and devouring them with a spoon, I should say. But when I got to episode five, where it's, it becomes your mother's story, even though it's about you as a kid, you have a lot of compassion for your mother's side of it. And I was, I was so moved by that because it was showing an understanding of parenting, not telling. Because she is there for you and you ask her how she can be there for you, [01:05:00] and she is talking about her own relationship and you're talking about her relationship with her mother.

Helena De Groot: [01:05:07] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:05:10] And it's a presentation of that relationship. That was so deeply felt and richly presented that it elevated the entire story, which was already I don't mean to sound like it wasn't high enough, but it elevated this question of should I or shouldn't I in a way that I think really needs to be done. And I actually, I was personally very proud of this when I made my own episode about, about motherhood. I talked about how Having a child makes you think so much about your own mother. You [01:06:00] think about these questions not just when you become a parent, but when you've had a parent. And so really.

Helena De Groot: [01:06:09] It's everyone for everyone.

Tamar Avishai: [01:06:11] It's for everyone.

Helena De Groot: [01:06:12] Yeah, yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:06:14] And I was just really, I was really grateful that you didn't that in opening up yourself so much to something that was so painful and, and inviting other people into that too. I mean, you know, you had to get your mother's permission to, to share her story.

Helena De Groot: [01:06:33] Which she bravely gave. Right? Yeah. It's brave. Well, she also didn't. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. Like she didn't demand to see edits. You know what I mean? She she said, I trust you. I mean, she had a knot in her stomach before she pressed play, but she still, you know, she still let me do it.

Tamar Avishai: [01:06:54] Yeah. No, I think that that that was the part where your post, it really, [01:07:00] really worked. Um that the deeper you went, the more yeah, the, the wider you could cast your net into bringing people into, into these, this story. Um, the last kind of part of this conversation I'd like to focus on is I want to ask you, if I may, where you've come down on this place of doubt and if there is any resolution, if you think there, there ever will be. One thing I will say before I let you answer that huge, thorny question is that. When you actually have the kid? Yeah. The question of whether or not you [01:08:00] regret it is almost. I say almost because you had a really interesting conversation with somebody. It's almost never the question because that person exists and suddenly the world has has stretched just a little more to accommodate that person. And so the idea of like, like, was this the right idea? Was this the right thing to do? It's like, especially as they get older, it's like they, they just are. They just are like, was it the right thing to have a little sister? Was it the right thing to have a grandma?

Helena De Groot: [01:08:43] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:08:44] Like they they just are. Yes. And so. The next question is then, well, well, how do I get my own sense of self back? And I kind of want to put a pin in that. Sure. And [01:09:00] go back to my, my initial question, you know, like, has this project changed your own relationship with your doubt?

Helena De Groot: [01:09:08] Oh, yes. That was a surprise to me. You know, it's not what I set out to do, what I set out to do. You know, my husband had just left me because he realized that I wouldn't change my mind. And he really wanted a child, so he left. And when he did, I was so angry with myself. Like, what was wrong with me? I was so confused, you know? Was this really worth it? Why am I so stubborn about this? Why do I even really know about this? Because I had been so defensive. I had to, you know, towards him and towards all these other people who tried to convince me. But. So in the absence of that, all of a sudden no one was pushing me. And it was the moment where the [01:10:00] doubt came roaring in a doubt that I'd never allowed inside even, you know. And that was the first surprise, because what I thought I was going to do was figure out what was wrong with me. And I say this with quotation marks, right? Like I, I do not in any way mean to imply that there's anything wrong with anyone who makes a decision either way or the other one way or the other.

Helena De Groot: [01:10:30] Um, but that was the feeling I had at the time. Like, what is my, I have some deficit somewhere, you know? Yeah. So I wanted to figure out what is wrong with me. Can I change that? And then if I change that, what will happen? Will that inevitably lead to wanting a kid or not? You know? But it was just like those were the questions. And so it was a path that had nothing to do with doubt. [01:11:00] But then the moment I started actually talking with myself, actually talking with my friends and people who know me and love me and allowing myself the full spectrum of feelings, doubt became the the, the pervasive feeling. And it was so uncomfortable, you know? I like being in control of sort of my day, my life, you know, like, I like to have a sense of control, whether it's like, you know, my house being in order or my calendar, like knowing what I'm going to do that day. And so the sense to girl. I hear that it's hard when you're a parent, you know that that is not.

Tamar Avishai: [01:11:45] Oh my God. I mean, yeah, it's yeah, yeah. Go on.

Helena De Groot: [01:11:51] So. The doubt was very uncomfortable. And I think once I had the doubt, I had a new mission [01:12:00] and the mission was, how can I make my way to certainty? Right? I was.

Tamar Avishai: [01:12:06] Um.

Helena De Groot: [01:12:07] I was planning to get my tubes tied and that was to sort of like an attempt at certainty, right? Like if I just take away the possibility to get pregnant, then yeah. Bom solved. No turning back, no reason for doubt. Right. And then I met someone and he made me feel all kinds of things I had never felt before. You know, he's a musician. He reads like we would read each other's short stories. Like, this is kind of the home that I come from. And so it brought up like all this nostalgia and this feeling of safety and of like, oh, we can create a little world together that can be sort of a center of beauty in whatever this world serves you up. Otherwise, [01:13:00] you know what I mean? Um, and the idea of making something with him or someone or you know what I mean? Just sort of co-creating a life like that really shook my foundations. You know, this idea that I had about myself, like, I don't want kids. I know that for sure. Why though, right? All of a sudden the question became, oh, do I want a kid? And so on the one hand, I was going to get my tubes tied and on the other, I wanted maybe a kid with this man. So speaking of doubt, right? And I thought, okay, I'm going to figure it out, right? I'm going to get the answer one way or the other. And I'm going to either get my tubes tied or have a kid. And it is through conversations with a lot of people and also just living, right, because I was making a memoir, not about something that had happened to me, but about something that was happening, right? I was [01:14:00] still living the life that I wrote about that I was thinking about that, that I think about in the show. Like you hear me actually in real time going through this messy process.

Tamar Avishai: [01:14:14] Oh, you sure do. You put yourself out there? Yeah. Incredibly, um, nakedly.

Helena De Groot: [01:14:23] Yeah. I felt like that was that was the only way to, in a way, force myself. That sounds violent, but I just felt like I had been ignoring my doubt and the complexity of my emotions for so long that I thought, I have to have something like a big container to put them in. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like when you're cleaning out your house and you take everything out of the cupboards before you organize it. You know what I mean? And your whole floor.

Tamar Avishai: [01:14:54] Is full.

Helena De Groot: [01:14:55] Of stuff and you're like, oh, God, what have I done? It was like that. Like I had smooshed [01:15:00] everything for years, for two decades into the cupboards. Just close the door. Bam, you know? And now I was like, all right, let me look what's in there. Let me put it all out on the floor, slash in the podcast. And then I can actually look at what it is, you know, and how to move forward. And I realized through actually through that conversation with that man who you just mentioned, the man who regretted having kids. But I realized at some point in conversation that Doubt will never go away. Yeah. Because of the simple logistical fact that you live life one time, right? And so you make decisions and then they're made and then you live with them. But you can question it an infinite number of times, right? Every choice you've ever made, you can be like, hmm, what if, what if I wouldn't have moved to this new country? What [01:16:00] if I wouldn't have taken that job? Right? Like, I think there's no end to our ability to doubt. Yeah. And so the idea that you can ever get rid of it all of a sudden seemed like a fool's errand, you know? And I was so surprised and kind of like my eyes at myself, like I'm a smart person. How is it that it took me so long to come to this very obvious conclusion that complicated questions will have complicated answers? You know.

Tamar Avishai: [01:16:33] It is not obvious though. It is not obvious. I think that this is this is how you know, you've hit your 40s because sure. You know. Yeah, sure. I don't doubt whether or not I should have kids because I had them and they're here. And and that's a decision that I made. And I'm, you know, in spite of, you know, you look up [01:17:00] close and it's like, I was really frustrated with my kid who wouldn't put on his shoes this morning. And like that, that was like a moment that felt very high keyed in the moment. But you take a step back and I, you know, he's my, my beating heart, like that's fine. But there are other doubts. There are other questions that every, that, that is that passenger next to you that accompanies you through life Is, is this the right decision for any number of things? I think that that is an incredibly universal takeaway to leave your series with. To leave any really good, you know, kind of exploration of, of a human moment. Um, and it's very, very relatable. [01:18:00] And I think that if somebody truly believes that. That like every choice can be made or not made and, and you can look back and like. Tabulate if it was the right thing to do. Yeah. They've got to be 23.

Helena De Groot: [01:18:18] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:18:19] Like if you think, if you think that that's what life is about and that that's the goal. You know, that that you should be able to do that with the life you've lived and that that will continue to be the goal of life. You are in your 20s.

Helena De Groot: [01:18:33] Totally. And what is so interesting is that I, as I said, I like control. That makes me feel sane and emotionally balanced. And this feeling of doubt gave me a sense of a lack of control, because it could sort of pull you in one direction or the other with huge consequences, you know? But what I what happened actually, when I allowed this doubt in [01:19:00] and wasn't so hell bent on doing everything I could to keep it at bay. What happened when I sort of loosened my grip on certainty, is that it was no longer so scary, you know? It was just this, like, now I know that when I feel this little ache in my heart, you know, like, I love toddlers and a helmet, like a bike helmet. You know, there are a lot of toddlers here in Brooklyn who just their heads are already so big. And then they wear the helmet and it just, they look so top heavy and it's just hilarious. And it gives me this little ache in my heart every time I see them. I'm like, I'm saying no to that, you know? I it hurts.

Helena De Groot: [01:19:58] Before I [01:20:00] felt that hurt and concluded, I must be making the wrong. Like I must be making a mistake. That's what that must mean, right? Because otherwise it wouldn't hurt. Yeah. And I've come to a place where I think, no, every decision has a loss within it, and loss hurts. And this is my loss, and I'll have to learn to live with it. And. It's like older, sadder, wiser. You know, it's one of those things where I feel like, oh, sadness is a part of it. It's not a sign. It's a feeling, you know? And that's okay. It's an okay feeling. It's a part of everything, you know, and, and it's beautiful because it means that you're open to the world, open to the beauty and experiences that you don't have, that you can recognize that other kinds [01:21:00] of lives are beautiful, you know? And so I am, I feel solid in my decision not to have children, knowing that sometimes my solid foundations will shake. You know, it's almost like I've been earthquake proved, you know, like I was still shake. But the building won't collapse, you know?

Tamar Avishai: [01:21:28] Mhm. Mhm.

Helena De Groot: [01:21:30] This said I had a conversation with a friend and she said, you know, where are you now with it? Like, do you feel like, do you think you'll ever change your mind again? You know, do you think you'll ever have a kid? And I said, no, I mean, I've, I've really put that question to bed, you know, and, uh, she said, uh, what if you get pregnant and it's, you know, you're, you're beloved, you know, like it's his kid. Mhm. [01:22:00] I gasped when she asked me that. It was sort of like a wind hitting me sort of full in the face, you know, like a gale all of a sudden. And I just said, what are you asking like? And she said, wait, you've never asked yourself that. I was like, no, I somehow I never came up. And I was so shocked because I felt immediately a surge of. Yes, a surge of a very complicated. Yes. Because it's not like, oh, that sounds so fun. I'd love to have a kid with him. No, obviously not, because otherwise I could just do that on purpose. Right.

Helena De Groot: [01:22:41] But it's more like, oh, if I am pregnant, I don't know if I would be capable of ending that pregnancy. Like the love that I feel for five year old Brendan. You know, it [01:23:00] floors me every time that I see a picture or he tells me a story. I have like tears up to, you know, the bottom of my eyes. Like if I blink, they come out, you know? And so the thought of having a little Brendan inside me And I don't know if I could do it, you know. And I was talking to him yesterday actually, about this and he said, okay, but it would be equally a little Helena. Right? And I was like, okay, well, yes, but that will be your problem to deal with then. You know, like, that is not what I want. I don't want a little Helena one. Is is really enough. Um, this is sort of a long winded answer to your question about Dao and where I am with it now. I have decided and I'm very happy with my decision. And also life is can I swear?

Tamar Avishai: [01:23:56] Oh, of course.

Helena De Groot: [01:23:57] Life is weird as fuck and you never [01:24:00] know. You just never know what will happen and who you'll be when that happens.

Tamar Avishai: [01:24:05] And and who they'll be. I mean, this word, this person, you know, I mean, is, is not it's it's completely hypothetical, but also it would be half your genetic material, half Brendan's. But it's a completely different person. Yeah, and that's actually something that I don't think we talk about enough in, in the whether or not to have kids space. Um, that this is for those of us who find giving up control so hard, almost unthinkably hard for our own sense of safety. And I relate to that more than, you know. You know, kind of putting this person out into the world and also [01:25:00] allowing them to kind of discover themselves the way that we were allowed to do. You know, that's something that where, where and we've talked about this where when you parent, You recognize that you were parented and you then think about the people who let you become you. Without putting too. Ideally, you know, without putting too much pressure or taking too much ownership over your achievements or your failings, both of which make you feel really affronted and insecure that someone else is kind of, you know, oh, what's wrong with me that you turned out this way? I mean, there's so many different ways we can give our kids complexes. And yet we also know from having received complexes that we're resilient and we can push past it. Um, so, [01:26:00] so that's something that I think that, you know, you, because babies are so helpless, we give ourselves more of a God complex than I think we deserve because it's very hard. You don't give birth to a six year old, you know, who's already kind of taken steps away from you. It's it's a trip right now, having a six year old and a four year old and a and an almost one year old, she's going to be one by the time this drops.

Tamar Avishai: [01:26:32] And I you know, I mean, it's like you get to see how quickly they'll be different by seeing every stage at once. Um, and I only know, you know, somebody who has an eight year old is like, look, look who thinks she knows, you know, never mind an adult child, a teenager. Um, you know, you can only know as far as you've taken those steps. Um, yeah. To go back to something [01:27:00] that you said about love loss, um, and kind of feeling, you know, seeing a toddler in a helmet and feeling a sense of loss, I will say, you know, I drop my 11 month old off at daycare in the mornings, and she's gone from being one of the, like, middle aged babies in the room that she's in to like the oldest baby, and she's about to transition because she's about to turn one. And I see these smaller babies and it hurts, and I know I'll never have one that size again. I personally loved the newborn phase. I'm one of the few. I love having a baby. I can't have any more. Um, because that would just be insane. Yeah, but I [01:28:00] will always want a baby in my arms and I will not be able to anymore after my daughter stops being a baby. It's just it. Three's three's enough. And hearing you say that and relating to it just brings up so much of what I related to in your series because of the contrasts that you presented. So you're talking about this kind of before place, and I'm kind of in the after place.

Helena De Groot: [01:28:44] Yeah.

Tamar Avishai: [01:28:44] But this question of, you know, how do I live in both the mundane and the sacred spaces? How do I find space for myself in, [01:29:00] you know, what is too much space for myself? What is not enough space? Um. How do I still assert the best of me when I'm just a pinprick of light in the universe? How do I find meaning in myself? How do I make myself matter? That is not a question that goes away when you have kids. And it is not a question that only people who have had kids get to grapple with. It's not a question that people who haven't had kids grapple with, because the season that I'm living in is going to be over pretty soon. You know, the longest, shortest time is, is real. And I will still have to find myself on the other side of this. And [01:30:00] so I guess I just want to say that, that you, you put your finger on something in the conceit of your show? The will I won't, I doubt kids, whatever. That is the most reductive way I could possibly describe your show. You have you have put your finger on something that is so human and so relatable that I. I just want to say how moved I was that I felt seen even in my ostensibly complete opposite position. So thank you for that.

Helena De Groot: [01:30:45] Oh, Tamar, that's it's so beautiful. And it's so surprising because while I was making it, I was so afraid. Like, what am I making? Who cares? [01:31:00] My life is not that extraordinary, you know. Does it rise to the level of, ooh, I need a memoir. You know, it just felt self-indulgent. And the fact that people with very different lives from mine. Still resonate and relate in ways that are really, really deep. You know, that something that I said about my experience is almost like a hand outstretched, you know, to someone else's experience.

Tamar Avishai: [01:31:39] Yeah.

Helena De Groot: [01:31:40] And it is a revelation to me. You know, it's a revelation like it put on its head what I thought was selfish. And I, I think the selfish question comes comes up a lot when it comes to parenthood, right? People who don't have kids are called selfish [01:32:00] because you can't give up your freedom for, you know. And people, people who do have kids.

Tamar Avishai: [01:32:06] Are called selfish.

Helena De Groot: [01:32:07] Are called selfish. Yeah. And so making this project that is quote unquote all about me, I thought while I was making it or I was often sort of, you know, self-flagellating like, oh, this is so embarrassing. You know, this is so selfish or self-centered. And now I know that the only place we can reach out to others from is the self. That's just how it is, you know? And it is only by being really grounded and really aware and kind and nuanced with ourselves. Not rigid, you know, not white knuckling on to certainty and our self-image. And like, this is who I am. Like the only way I think to extend this hand, [01:33:00] you know, to other people is by, in a way being. Let's just call it selfish. I think that word is is wrong. You know, I think it it all starts with us.

Tamar Avishai: [01:33:15] So ironically, that's really good parenting advice. It just is. That is how you reach out to other people. That's how you extend a hand and be present enough in yourself to be present for them. And that's that's all they need. So yeah. So you heard it from Helena first. How to be a good parent.

Helena De Groot: [01:33:53] Oh my God. I'm gonna put that on my business card.

Tamar Avishai: [01:33:59] Helena. Thank [01:34:00] you so, so much for talking to me and for for making this unbelievable series. I'm so glad it's out in the world. And I have a lot of people who I know are going to enjoy listening to it in, in and outside of the the parenting space. So thank you.

Helena De Groot: [01:34:18] That's incredible. Tamar, thank you for all the time that you've spent with me and with the show and the fact that you resonate with it. You know, as someone who's really embraced parenthood is more meaningful than I can than I can say.

Tamar Avishai: [01:34:41] You can listen to the whole of Helena's series creation myth from the CBC's personally, wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for creation myth. And while you're at it, leave it a rating and a review. Or just poke Helena on social media and tell her how much it meant to you, because I promise it will. [01:35:00] And on a personal note, I know I've been away a while. Blame the baby while you still can. Because you know she's not going to be a baby much longer. But the lonely palette is slowly coming back online with more episodes, more projects, more interviews in the pipeline. So let me just take a moment and thank you for your patience and your grace. And I promise you it'll be rewarded. I'll see you soon.